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SALT LAKE CITY (RNS) Just because the nation may change its laws to “tolerate legalized acts of immorality” does not make those acts any less spiritually damaging, senior Mormon apostle Boyd K. Packer said.

50 Comments

  1. I hope it is obvious to anyone that has done at least a little research that Mormons are an obvious fraud. The leaders spend the better half of the conference telling their members to be obedient and the other half touting about the commandment of tithing. It is a religion where these things are the focus, do as your told and hand over your money. There a few good apples in the bunch, but most of the doctrine boils down to these commandments, pay, pray and obey.

    • Brenda Crosier

      As a faithful Latter-day Saint, I have been asked if I believe with blind faith. My reply is with others who say, ” I obey not because I am blind, but because I can see.” As I receive instruction from church leaders, I then ask my Father in Heaven how he would have me proceed. As I have done so over my life, I have found blessings to my family in following the convictions the _He_ gives me. I obey the law of tithing found in the Old Testament and I have watched my family receive blessings accordingly from a loving Father who is grateful for the balanced use of the finances he gives us in the first place.

      • Duwayne Anderson

        On the day I resigned from the LDS Church I got an immediate pay increase of 10%. I also got an immediate bump to a two-day weekend. As a result I have more time and resources to spend with my family, and we’ve all reaped great happiness as a result. The process of leaving the Mormon Church also strengthened my critical reasoning skills, which has helped my carrier tremendously. Leaving Mormonism was one of the best decisions of my life — I encourage all Mormons to learn to think for themselves, stop letting the church defraud you, and leave.

        • john bocchetti

          I put an end to my affiliation to Mormonism shortly after I graduated from BYU, I believe it was the dictates of the “holy X” at the university that convinced me that this was a kinder gentler totalitarian regime.
          That was years 25-77.
          Mormonism is a rumor based religion, and blind faith to those Utah idiots in Salt Lake. They own more real estate bought with ill gotten gain. Romney cemented my complete opposition to this hoax…

    • Todd Pumphrey

      David, I have been a member of this church my whole life and I can atest that thesubject of keeping the commandments is taught frequently from the pulpit. I can also confirm that the law of tithing is also taught but not as frequently taught as you believe. The majority of what is taught from the pulpits of every LDS church I have attended has been the two great commandments; Love and serve God, and love our fellow man as ourselves. All the teachings and intructions given to us, fall into these two two great commandments.

    • Donald Kosloff

      I have done a lot of research and there is no fraud. However, I have seen much hateful intolerance of Mormons by those who demand tolerance (and more) for themselves.

      • Duwayne Anderson

        Mormons love to feel persecuted — it validates their silly notions of belonging to the “only true church.” But it’s not “persecution” to reject your frauds, Donald. You have a right to believe in stupidity, but you shouldn’t expect to be respected for it, nor is it “hate” to point out the absurdities in your religion.

        In Mormonism the biggest fraud is the Book of Mormon. This book purports to be a literal history written by ancient Americans. It describes ancient Americans domesticating horses, cattle, swine, and other animals — yet, in truth, the ancient Americans didn’t do that. The Book of Mormon also describes Native Americans cultivating domesticated Old World plants — again, in stark contrast to the way things really were. Other examples of the fraudulent nature of the Book of Mormon include its description of ancient Americans smelting steel and writing in Egyptian/Hebrew. In virtually every non-trivial way, the description of Ancient America given by the Book of Mormon is wrong. The book is not just a fraud, but a clumsy fraud that anyone with a good Internet connection and an hour or two can figure out.

        After the Book of Mormon, the most notable Mormon fraud is the Book of Abraham. This book describes the God of the universe as the phallic Egyptian god, Min. [Min is the little dude with the willy in figure 7 of facsimile 2. In some editions of the Book of Abraham the Mormon Church actually scrubbed out the willy, embarrassed about having Egyptian porn in their “scriptures.” They put the willy back in after Mormon critics pointed out their attempt to cover up this little bit of Smith’s fraud.] And, of course, the Book of Abraham is full of young-earth clap trap as well as the most ignorant/funny commentary on astronomy.

        • Clearly Du’wayne, you haven’t read the Book of Mormon from cover to cover and certainly any words that you may have read have been read without an open mind. You have simply read the words of other critics and regurgitated them here. Try a little academic and spiritual analysis. Study the claims of Mormon apologists carefully. A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Actually, David, I’ve read it cover-to-cover over 17 times. At one point in my life, I had about 30% of the book committed to memory. Without doubt, I know the Book of Mormon far better than you do.

            I was born to LDS parents. I went on a mission, graduated from BYU, and married in the temple. I’ve held many jobs in the church, including Elder’s Quorum President.

            You might try a little of your own advice — try being a little less steeped in your indoctrination. Try questioning the profits who are leading you around by the nose. Any person with a three-digit IQ can discover the fraud of the Book of Mormon, given an hour or two in a well-equipped library. It doesn’t take brains to figure out that it’s a fraud; it just takes a little courage and some character.

        • Donald Kosloff

          Duwayne,
          I hope your reading comprehension improves. I did not state that I am a Mormon because I am a Methodist. Neither did I state that criticism is hatred, although often criticism is often driven by hatred. The hatred that has been and continues to be expressed toward Mormons cannot be mistaken for criticism.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Don, I hope your reading comprehension improves, too. See, I didn’t say you said. I simply made the statement that Mormons love to feel persecuted.

            As for “hatred” — well, you brought it up. And you brought it up within the context of criticism; nothing more. And since you brought it up, you shouldn’t be too surprised if someone takes the subject and comments on it. And when they do, it’s disingenuous of your to object.

            And on that subject, you can find more hate aimed by Mormons at ex-Mormons, than the other way around. If you want an example of such hatred, read the statement below, from Mormon prophet Brigham Young (Mormon writings are full of such hatred — I can supply as many examples as you wish).

            “I say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, I will unsheath [sic] my bowie knife, and conquer or die [Great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.]. Now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet [Voices, generally, ‘go it, go it.’]. If you say it is right, raise your hands [All hands up.]. Let us call upon the Lord to assist us in this, and every good work.” [Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 1, p. 83; online at http://journals.mormonfundamentalism.org/Vol_01/refJDvol1-16.html

        • Duwayne, You may have read the Book of Mormon cover-to-cover over 17 times and had 30% it committed to memory, but what point are you making? Reading the Book of Mormon a bunch of times doesn’t make you Mormon. Being born to LDS parents doesn’t make you Mormon. Going on a mission, graduating from BYU, being married in the temple, and holding jobs in the church does not make you Mormon. Many Mormons are judgemental, intolerant, and confused, but that is natural to any human being on the planet.
          Being a Mormon is a way of life. Being a Mormon is not a specific person but what the person symbolizes. My dad was Catholic and mother was Mormon so I am not just coming from a closed viewpoint. Life takes turns at all points. I am glad you were given an increase of money. However, one thing that I have come to learn is money isn’t what makes people happy. It is living a life full of service and love which is what the Mormons are aiming for. Now, you can say “I hate Mormons. They are frauds!” However, I ask you to take a person who is a strict Mormon and living their standards and someone who isn’t and see the difference there is in the two lives. Please don’t bash on people because they want to live morally clean lives, believe in the Savior, and strive to do good continually.
          I know that my Savior lives. I know that He lives. I know He lives. I am not perfect. I have many trials. There are dips downs, but there are also lifts in life. I am so grateful that I can live with my Heavenly Father someday and I know that as I live a clean life in line with the principles taught in the Mormon church then that is when I will be most happy.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Sarah, if you would read what I wrote you’d know the points I’m making.

            First of all, I pointed out that David (typical for Mormons) wrongly assumed that I know nothing about Mormonism or the absurd Book of Mormon.

            Secondly, the points about my past life as a Mormon were in direct contradiction to David’s false assumption that I am critical of Mormonism out of ignorance.

            Is it really that difficult, Sarah? I thought it was rather clear (given the context of David’s comments to which I responded) that the whole point of my post was to put the lie to David’s assertion that I didn’t know much about Mormonism. I know it very well. I *lived* it very well – undoubtedly as well (or better) than you or David.

            Sara wrote: “Now, you can say “I hate Mormons. They are frauds!””

            That’s not true, Sara. You are bearing false witness; shame on you.
            I never said “I hate Mormons.” And I never said “Mormons are fraud,” either. In fact, I have many Mormon friends and find Mormons to be generally likeable (if not intolerably simple minded and gullible). As for frauds – Mormons are the *victims* of fraud – the fraud is being committed against them by their corrupt church.

            Sara wrote: “I know that my Savior lives. I know that He lives. I know He lives.”

            That’s funny, Sara. I know that thermodynamics is true, but I’ve never felt compelled to bear my testimony of thermodynamics — let alone repeat it, as you have. I think that your testimony, and the silly repetition, illustrates that you really *don’t* know, and that you are trying really, really, really hard to convince yourself against your better judgment.

        • There is one problem with much of what you say about us Mormons, Duwayne. You see, we know what we know because the Holy Ghost has told us. The Spirit has witnessed it to us and does so on a daily basis. Unlike you, I converted to the Church from a non-LDS family in my teens. I can point to the very day and the very moment when I found out that the Church was true. For me, it was a experience similar to that which occurred on the day of Pentecost. Now, you can continue to take the approach of many opponents, which is to mock and belittle (cf. “absurd Book of Mormon”) in your pompous way. However, what you will never be able to do is take away from active Latter-day Saints the reality of the sorts of spiritual experiences that I have just described.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Would that be the same holy ghost that told several generations of Mormon prophets that Blacks had been “not valiant” in the pre-existence, and thus were not “worthy” to hold the priesthood?

            Would that be the same holy ghost that revealed the temple ordinances that later Mormon prophets, also claiming guidance by the holy ghost, changed?

            Would that be the same holy ghost who instructed the murderers at Mountain Meadows to kill innocent women and children?

            Would that be the same holy ghost who told Smith that the world is only 7,000 years old?

            Would that be the same holy ghost who told another prophet (also named Smith) that man would never land on the moon?

            Would that be the same holy ghost who told Smith there are people living on the moon, dressed as Quakers?

            Would that be the same holy ghost who told Smith where to look for buried treasure?

            Please — this holy ghost of yours is a figment of your imagination. The holy ghost is nothing more than you talking nonsense to yourself.

          • Duayne, I read your comments and you sound so full of anger. Relax. I am not here to argue. I’m just trying to provide a little incite and if you are just here to argue that there is absolutely no point. It’s what the scriptures, not just the Book of Mormon call hardheartedness.
            I understand you were making a direct contradiction of David’s comment. Alright. You know a lot about Mormons. That’s great. Also, I’m glad you lived the standards of Mormonism. It proves to be a beneficial lifestyle. However, please explain to me how you lived it “undoubtedly as well (or better) than” either David or I. What a silly thing to say. It shows extreme immaturity on your parts so I suggest you stop using that in comments or rather accusations.

            Duayne, are you expecting me to be perfect in every comment I make. Bearing false witness? Are you serious? I may be wrong, and you may correct me if I am, but when people such as yourself go to the lengths you do to try to pick out something you can shove back at us it just seem ridiculous. I never said I was perfect and I fully and wholeheartedly admit that I’m not.

            As far as saying I know that my Savior lives, it may look as if I am trying to convince myself from your point of view. However, to clear up that misunderstanding, I was saying it three times as repetition. Most times, people learn best from repetition. Thermodynamics? Well, you are welcome to bear your testimony on thermodynamics, but since we are commenting on a religious post about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, it might be more appropriate to bear your testimony of thermodynamics on a scientific website. It just surprises me that you say I illustrate that I don’t really know, but I’m glad I could clear it up that I, in fact, do know that He lives.

            As LDS members (you probably know this since you are so well-educated on this religion), we believe in modern day revelation. This would explain the ability for the Blacks to receive the priesthood, the changing of temple ordinances, and the knowlege of where to find the plates (buried treasure as you call it) by Joseph Smith. The Holy Ghost is not a figment of my imagination. Have you never felt the Holy Ghost in your time as a previous member of the Church? If so, I do not understand how you could ever deny that the Holy Ghost is a figment of your imagination. If not, I am very sorry. It is a miraculous and marvelous blessing in my every day life and I thank my Heavenly Father every day for the gift it is to me. I challenge you to strive to find and put your life in line so you can receive the strength that I know comes from the presence of the Holy Ghost.

            I appreciate your listening and any understanding of my comments because I feel as if I could go tell it to the world which I am very much looking forward to and in process of as I set an example as a disciple of Christ in the way I live my life.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Sara Ray wrote: “Duayne, I read your comments and you sound so full of anger.”

            Sara, you are saying that because you’ve been indoctrinated by your church to think bad things about people who leave your church. Try to think beyond your indoctrination.

            Sara wrote: “Bearing false witness? Are you serious?”

            Yeah, Sara. I’m serious. You shouldn’t accuse me of doing things I’ve never done. And when you do, you shouldn’t try to justify your bad behavior — you should repent.

            Sara wrote: “Thermodynamics? Well, you are welcome to bear your testimony on thermodynamics,..”

            You are missing the point, Sara. People don’t bear testimony of things that are clearly true — there’s no *need* to bear testimony of thermodynamics, or gravity, or geology, etc.. But you clearly feel a need to bear testimony that your church is true — and for the simple reason that it takes a lot of “repetition” and “testimony” to keep the illusion alive. In other words, every time your bear your “testimony” you are illustrating the weakness of your position; your “testimony” is a window into the internal fear/struggle that you wrestle with, regarding the truth of your church.

            Sara wrote: “we believe in modern day revelation. This would explain the ability for the Blacks to receive the priesthood…”

            Interesting that atheists and humanists got the “revelation” before your prophets. Who needs your prophets when they are always “a day late and a dollar short?”

            Sara wrote: “The Holy Ghost is not a figment of my imagination.”

            How do you know?

            Sara wrote: “I challenge you to strive to find and put your life in line …”

            This is a good example of how Mormonism turns followers of the religion into self-righteous little twits.

          • Duayne, I don’t know why you say I’ve been indoctrinated to think bad about the people who left my church. I don’t think bad about you in the least! I say that with all the honesty I can muster. Please stop assuming things.

            I’m not going to argue over this because then I lose the Holy Ghost because I start to feel aggrivated.

            I’ll address just a few: How do you know that gravity exists? Well, if you go jump off a cliff, you will have a sure witness of the feelings and effects of gravity and you will definitely not think it is just a figment of your imagination. The same stands for the Holy Ghost. I know the Holy Ghost is not a figment of my imagination because I have directly felt the feelings and effects of the Holy Ghost.

            Oh and I have one more question. Every year there are people who stand at the corner of the Mesa temple around Easter time because of the Easter Pageant that takes place. There are also people who come to the Salt Lake temple square holding signs and yelling at us as we walk to General Conference twice a year. I was also driving home the other day and there were people standing in front of the Seminary. Why? Why do you feel so inclined to bash on us? Why do you feel the need to tell us that we don’t feel and don’t know things even though you have no idea about what we feel and know. Do you ever see a group of LDS members sitting if front of your church holding signs and yelling that you are wrong and you don’t know anything and that you are a twit? I sure hope not because that is not what LDS members are taught in church. If that is the case, I would like to apologize for them because that is not right. As you look back in history, we have been persecuted and persecuted and I don’t see the reasons behind it. I don’t bash on Jewish beliefs. I went to the Living Word church the other week and I didn’t stand up and say they are teaching false doctrine. I don’t stand in front of a Methodist church laughing and mocking them as they go into church. It is so sad that we can’t just worship without people like you trying to tare us down. I wish it would stop. It is truly sad that people can’t just have enough respect for others just to leave them be. Why is this the case?

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Sara wrote: “I’m not going to argue over this because then I lose the Holy Ghost because I start to feel aggrivated.”

            Too late, Sara. According to your own scriptures, you lost the holy ghost when you bore false witness, refused to repent, and instead tried to excuse your behavior. In case you’ve forgotten the verse, here it is:

            “….when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn,..” [D&C 121:37]

            http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/121.37?lang=eng#36

            Sara asked: “Why do you feel so inclined to bash on us?”

            I think I’ve been pretty up front about what’s wrong with the Mormon Church. It’s a fraud, and it uses superstition to defraud members and new converts of 10% of their increase. Why *wouldn’t* someone want to alert others about such a thing?

            Sara asked: “Do you ever see a group of LDS members sitting if front of your church holding signs and yelling..”

            Mormons have a distinct passive aggressive approach. Although Mormons don’t hold signs and yell, they are very adept at expressing their hatred of other groups. Boyd’s talk is a good example in the way he encourages the writing of Mormon religious convictions into civil law as a way to *force* aspects of Mormonism on everyone else. A specific example is the “secret combinations” used by Mormons and the Mormon Church to pass Prop 8, which is legislation that strips an entire group of their civil rights and tore apart their families.

            If anyone treated your family the way the Mormon Church has treated Gay families, you would be howling about “persecution.” The fact that you don’t see the evil that your church wreaks on other people is part of what makes the LDS Church so nefarious — Mormon indoctrination is so deep and insidious that Mormons feel personally persecuted whenever someone is critical of the church’s behavior, yet (in their self-righteous stupor) they feel completely vindicated when it comes to their pompous attacks on others.

            Sara wrote: “Do you ever see a group of LDS members sitting if front of your church holding signs and yelling that you are wrong…”

            Your complaints about sign holders are pure hypocrisy, Sara. Annually the LDS Church sends out tens of thousands of Mormon missionaries to convert people away from their religions, and into Mormonism. Perhaps you even “served” a mission yourself. So the Mormons and the Mormon Church asserts *their* right to express *their* viewpoints about the inadequacies of other religions, and to actively encourage others to leave those religions – but they act all persecuted when others do the same to them.

            By the way, I’m an atheist, so I don’t have a church or a set of superstitions. But now that you mention it, the Mormon Church has a great deal to say about atheism, and none of it is good. Your church attacks atheism with a vengeance. It accuses atheism of darn near every evil in modern society. In fact, if I spoke about you and your church the way your church speaks about atheists and atheism, I’m pretty sure you’d go ballistic with cries of persecution.

            See the hypocrisy? See the double standard that you and your church adhere to?

            And it’s not just atheism, either. Mormonism is highly antagonistic and virulent with regard to other religions. The fact that your method of *delivering* that virulence is different doesn’t really matter. Here are a few examples of hateful teachings from Mormon leaders with regard to other religions:

            “I was answered that I must join none of them (other churches), for they were all awrong; and .. their creeds were an abomination in [god's] sight; that [they] .. were all corrupt….” [JS History, 1:19]

            http://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1.19?lang=eng#18

            “… Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God [LDS Church], and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God [LDS Church] belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” [Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10]

            http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/14.10?lang=eng#9

            “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.” [Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176]

            “With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.” [Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199]

            “Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.” [ Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255]

            There are literally dozens (perhaps hundreds) more quotations like this, showing how Mormon leaders and Mormon scriptures “bash” other religions, Sara.

            Sara wrote: “….we have been persecuted and persecuted and I don’t see the reasons behind it.”

            When it comes to the body count, Mormons have killed more “Gentiles” than the other way around. In fact, one of the worst acts of terrorism in American history occurred at Mountain Meadows where Mormons butchered in cold blood over 100 men, women and children.

            You are very astute at recognizing the wrongs done against Mormons, and very self-righteous when it comes to the wrongs Mormons have done against others. The most recent example is that of your bloated, bloviating prophet and his call for enshrining Mormon doctrines in civil law, and using civil law to force everyone in the country to live according to the dictates of your religion. Boyd is an evil man — the fact that Mormons (including, presumably, you) sustain him as a “prophet” is all the proof than anyone needs that you have nothing resembling the mythical “holy ghost.”

          • The very thing you said I bore false witness about was that I said “Now, you can say “I hate Mormons. They are frauds!” Did you not just say, “I think I’ve been pretty up front about what’s wrong with the Mormon Church. It’s a fraud” That’s rather interesting…

            I’m pretty sure you do antagonize the Mormon church just as much if not more as you say we look down on atheists or other churches.

            I’m pretty darn sure that you are being just as pompous as me, so you don’t have any reason to talk.

            AND… I guess we’ll just have to stick to each of our own opinions and we’ll see when we all die. I hope you have a wonderful day and great life… I really do! Focus on what is most important in life and you can find happiness there. I guess we just all have own view of what is important!

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Sara wrote: “AND… I guess we’ll just have to stick to each of our own opinions and we’ll see when we all die.

            The nice thing about logic/reason is that one can figure things out now. I’ve posted reams of evidence. All you’ve posted is your assertions and “testimony.” But “testimonies” are a dime a dozen. Fundamentally, there’s no difference between an un-supported “testimony” that the Book of Mormon is true, and someone who “knows” they were abducted by aliens. Both believe in the absence and contradiction of evidence. Both are irrational and illogical.

            Sara wrote: ” hope you have a wonderful day and great life… I really do!”

            You, too, Sara.

            Sara wrote: “Focus on what is most important in life and you can find happiness there. I guess we just all have own view of what is important!”

            I have, and I do. For me, there’s more happiness to be found in reality than in fabricated stories and intellectual dissonance. Some people are just not happy living in a fantasy land. Others, though, see to really enjoy it.

    • I’m a mormon and I’m greatful to have 12 apostles and a Prophet to teach Gods word. Such a blessing that God restored his church. Also greatful it’s a lay ministry so my tithing goes to help people and spread the word, not to my pastors BMW. Also people why do you hate on tithing when it goes to serve people?

      • Duwayne Anderson

        Anyone who would sustain a man like Boyd Packer should hang their head in shame.

        I remember, in like manner, how Mormons lined up to “sustain” Ezra Benson, the “prophet” who was the 13thn “prophet” of the church. Benson, like Packer, was a horrible person and a staunch bigot. Among other things, Benson fought the civil rights movement — calling it a “communist plot.”

        It is a testament to the power of cults that men like Packer and Benson can be revered by their followers.

    • We all have our own opinions. I am a Mormon convert of 30 years because I had Joseph Smith type experience, I prayed God would show me the true church if there was one. I thought an angel was about to appear in my bed room such was the power of the Holy Ghost, I was afraid asked God not to send an angel but show me another way. The next day two Mormon missionaries knocked on my door and told me they wanted to tell me about Jesus, I had never met a Mormon before. The Holy Ghost confirmed this was truth. I have enjoyed many personal revelations from God since then and now, so I know God lives and the Book of Mormon is true. I also acknowledge as Paul wrote, the things of the Spirit are foolishness to the world. It is all about your personal relationship with God, God bless you all.

    • This is nonsense. I am an active Mormon but can not remember the last time I heard a talk about tithing. It was a long time ago. for the most part Mormon leaders are kind and loving, giving their time freely to serve God in his church.

      • Duwayne Anderson

        tombrod wrote: “This is nonsense. I am an active Mormon but can not remember the last time I heard a talk about tithing.”

        Another thing about Mormons — the feel absolutely no shame at all when lying about their church’s doctrines. Perhaps I can help refresh tombrods memory.

        First — tithing is front and center in Mormonism. It’s a requirement for a “temple recommend” and without a temple recommend a person cannot participate fully in Mormon family events such as attending temple weddings, and performing expected ordinances for family members. Without a temple recommend, a person is literally a second-class citizen in the Mormon Church and the Mormon Church holds “tithing settlements” annually with their members to make certain that the members are properly paying their tithing.

        As for “talks” about tithing, one of the most notorious was given by an evil little man named Lynn Robbins — a Mormon General Authority, from what’s called the “Quorum of the Seventy.” His talk was titled “Tithing—a Commandment Even for the Destitute” and was delivered in 2005 General Conference.

        Another Mormon leader (Dan Johnson — also of the Quorum of the Seventy) gave a talk in the October 2006 General Conference called “The LAW of tithing.”

        In fact, a quick search of the magazine articles and General Conference talks (at www.lds.org) shows that tithing is one of the most active/talked-about subjects.

        • I have recently been very short of cash. I have a solid understanding and relationship with God and I pay my tithing. Malachi3 10 the Lord says “prove me now here with” and the “windows of heaven” will be opened. I received money to pay rent but did not have enough to pay tithing, I wrote an IOU and put it in a tithing envelope in my drawer, about a minute later the mail arrived with a large cheque I had not requested or anticipated. God proved to me he lives and keeps his promises. The church is true.

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Just one check?

            I stopped paying tithing 25 years ago. During that time my salary has quadrupled and the net savings have amounted to many hundreds of thousands of dollars. The net return on investment has amounted to nearly a million dollars, and I can retire early. What better evidence that the Mormon Church is a fraud and that the Mormon god doesn’t exist?

          • Yep one big fat cheque (I live in England)
            This has happened before Sorry you are so bitter God does love you

          • Duwayne Anderson

            Sorry that tithing has been such a disappointment for you. God does love you, though he is saddened by your devotion to superstition. I testify that if you abandon your devotion to superstition and cleave unto logic and reason you will live a more fulfilled and happy life. Sorry you are so bitter and angry toward those who disagree with you — hate really will rot your soul. Try to be open to new ideas — it really is liberating.

  2. I hope it’s becoming increasingly obvious to everyone that those who criticize the Mormon Church are frauds. They have been living a lie for centuries based upon middle-age doctrines that bear no resemblance toward the original Christian Church set up by the Savior. The result of this apostasy is evident in their wavering set of values and the very tolerance trap explained by President Packer. Their values shift to wherever the political winds blow. Their false creeds and teachings result in memberships that remain with them only for social reasons rather than for spiritual nourishment. Their members show scant little allegiance toward their churches because of the lack of substance and doctrine contained in them. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints offers people the true waters of life. It is the only Church in which the truly transformational gospel that brings people closer to Christ can be found on earth today, The rest are, as I said, frauds.

    • It’s been so long since I’ve shared your opinion that at first I was confused as to whether this post was parody or not. I’m assuming now that this comment is legit— and if not it certainly could pass for it. Poe Law at work I suppose.

      In any event props for illustrating the moral and doctrinal superiority that is Mormonism. It can be easy online to dismiss the claims of critics as crazy but comments like yours make it clear that even though they seem incredible there is at least some truth to what is said about Mormons.

  3. Duwayne Anderson

    Sara: I already posted the stuff (below) but it appears not to have been accepted. This may be because I had hyperlinks to the various quotations. I’ve removed the hyperlinks here, in case that was the problem.

    Sara wrote: “I’m not going to argue over this because then I lose the Holy Ghost because I start to feel aggrivated.”

    Too late, Sara. According to your own scriptures, you lost the holy ghost when you bore false witness, refused to repent, and instead tried to excuse your behavior. In case you’ve forgotten the verse, here it is:

    “….when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn,..” [D&C 121:37]

    Sara asked: “Why do you feel so inclined to bash on us?”

    I think I’ve been pretty up front about what’s wrong with the Mormon Church. It’s a fraud, and it uses superstition to defraud members and new converts of 10% of their increase. Why *wouldn’t* someone want to alert others about such a thing?

    Sara asked: “Do you ever see a group of LDS members sitting if front of your church holding signs and yelling..”

    Mormons have a distinct passive aggressive approach. Although Mormons don’t hold signs and yell, they are very adept at expressing their hatred of other groups. Boyd’s talk is a good example in the way he encourages the writing of Mormon religious convictions into civil law as a way to *force* aspects of Mormonism on everyone else. A specific example is the “secret combinations” used by Mormons and the Mormon Church to pass Prop 8, which is legislation that strips an entire group of their civil rights and tore apart their families.

    If anyone treated your family the way the Mormon Church has treated Gay families, you would be howling about “persecution.” The fact that you don’t see the evil that your church wreaks on other people is part of what makes the LDS Church so nefarious — Mormon indoctrination is so deep and insidious that Mormons feel personally persecuted whenever someone is critical of the church’s behavior, yet (in their self-righteous stupor) they feel completely vindicated when it comes to their pompous attacks on others.

    Sara wrote: “Do you ever see a group of LDS members sitting if front of your church holding signs and yelling that you are wrong…”

    Your complaints about sign holders are pure hypocrisy, Sara. Annually the LDS Church sends out tens of thousands of Mormon missionaries to convert people away from their religions, and into Mormonism. Perhaps you even “served” a mission yourself. So the Mormons and the Mormon Church asserts *their* right to express *their* viewpoints about the inadequacies of other religions, and to actively encourage others to leave those religions – but they act all persecuted when others do the same to them.

    By the way, I’m an atheist, so I don’t have a church or a set of superstitions. But now that you mention it, the Mormon Church has a great deal to say about atheism, and none of it is good. Your church attacks atheism with a vengeance. It accuses atheism of darn near every evil in modern society. In fact, if I spoke about you and your church the way your church speaks about atheists and atheism, I’m pretty sure you’d go ballistic with cries of persecution.

    See the hypocrisy? See the double standard that you and your church adhere to?

    And it’s not just atheism, either. Mormonism is highly antagonistic and virulent with regard to other religions. The fact that your method of *delivering* that virulence is different doesn’t really matter. Here are a few examples of hateful teachings from Mormon leaders with regard to other religions:

    “I was answered that I must join none of them (other churches), for they were all awrong; and .. their creeds were an abomination in [god's] sight; that [they] .. were all corrupt….” [JS History, 1:19]

    “… Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God [LDS Church], and the bother is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God [LDS Church] belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.” [Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 14:10]

    “Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth.” [Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 6, p. 176]

    “With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world.” [Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 8, p. 199]

    “Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent.” [ Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255]

    There are literally dozens (perhaps hundreds) more quotations like this, showing how Mormon leaders and Mormon scriptures “bash” other religions, Sara.

    Sara wrote: “….we have been persecuted and persecuted and I don’t see the reasons behind it.”

    When it comes to the body count, Mormons have killed more “Gentiles” than the other way around. In fact, one of the worst acts of terrorism in American history occurred at Mountain Meadows where Mormons butchered in cold blood over 100 men, women and children.

    You are very astute at recognizing the wrongs done against Mormons, and very self-righteous when it comes to the wrongs Mormons have done against others. The most recent example is that of your bloated, bloviating prophet and his call for enshrining Mormon doctrines in civil law, and using civil law to force everyone in the country to live according to the dictates of your religion. Boyd is an evil man — the fact that Mormons (including, presumably, you) sustain him as a “prophet” is all the proof than anyone needs that you have nothing resembling the mythical “holy ghost.”

  4. Duwayne, I find the comments you’ve made very interesting and you have some good arguments. I would like to know what brought you to the point of leaving the church for good? Were you searching for those things that would prove the church to be wrong? Or were you in fact searching for the truth?

    I am one of those people who could easily become too tolerable or too open minded. However, in saying that, I also believe that what Elder Packer said to be true, since, there must be a line drawn somewhere. We cannot be too tolerable, because that will give too many people too much freedom which will eventually lead to more confusion and less truth. The saying, if you don’t stand for something, you’ll fall for anything, rings true here. Somehow we have to stand up for what is right and true. If we allow people to follow their own appetites all the time, this world will be a crazy place, which in some way I can see happening already. There has to be a measure of protection, there has to be a standard of living that will keep society from being tossed around. To me, it just makes sense that restriction of some kind is necessary.

    • Duwayne Anderson

      Naomi: In answer to your question, I’ve cut/pasted part of my resignation letter that I sent to the LDS Church when I left:
      ————————————

      The first and most important reason that I’m resigning my membership is because of the rampant lying and generally unethical behavior practiced by the church and its leaders. The LDS Church lies about its history. I was lied to, repeatedly, by seminary teachers, BYU professors, and church leaders regarding notorious episodes in LDS history. Church leaders have also lied, repeatedly, about LDS Church doctrine. President Hinckley lied about the doctrine that god was once a man. Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other early church leaders lied repeatedly about such things as plural marriage, blood atonement, and the Adam-god doctrine. Brigham Young lied regarding his involvement in the abhorrent cold-blooded murder of women and children at Mountain Meadows. Seminary teachers lied to me about the manner in which Joseph Smith committed adultery by having sex with other women, while he was married to Emma, and against Emma’s objections. Joseph Smith was a con man, scoundrel, adulterer, and cult leader. Brigham Young was all those things as well as an accessory to murder. Current church leaders carry on this tradition of dishonesty and lying, and I simply refuse to allow my good name to be associated with such a corrupt and unethical corporation.

      The second reason for my resignation is the manner in which the LDS Church divides families and encourages siblings, parents, and relatives to ostracize those who leave the church. This includes the divisive manner in which non-members (though often more ethical and moral than the “Saints”) are not allowed to attend the weddings of family members who choose a “temple” marriage. The manner in which the church attacks families and family values, by using familial relationships to coerce people into staying active and paying money to the church, is a moral breach for which no corporation can be forgiven. This coercion goes beyond families and extends to unethical treatment of church employees. Again, I simply cannot allow my good name to be associated with such corrupt and unethical behavior.

      The third reason for my resignation is the manner in which the church has built itself upon a foundation of mythology. Within Mormonism members are expected to accept as true many things that are scientifically and logically inconsistent and false. By placing so much emphasis on the literal acceptance of mythology, the church makes intellectual dishonesty and ignorance key requirements for full fellowship. Examples of this mythology include the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, Book of Moses, and the Bible. It is certainly acceptable to teach myth in the interest of furthering ethical behavior, provided the myths are understood as such, and not falsely portrayed as literally true. The LDS Church, however, acts in an unethical and immoral way when it demands acceptance of these myths as true, thus making intellectual dishonesty and ignorance key prerequisites for full participation in the organization. I simply cannot allow my good name to be associated with an organization that has such low regard for ethics and intellectual honesty.

      The fourth reason for my resignation is the way the church acts as a political organization, and because of the immoral and often unconstitutional political goals they pursue. Just as abhorrent are the individual policies of high-profile Mormons in politics. These politicians vote according to the teachings of the church, and represent the church’s political aspirations. High-profile Mormons in politics routinely fight against individual civil liberties. With few exceptions, Mormon politicians promote continued discrimination against groups based solely on religious grounds. This is an extension of the church’s long and sordid history of rank racism – a sin the church refuses to repent of, or even acknowledge. As such, I simply cannot allow my good name to be tarnished by continued association with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The church is simply too immoral.

      When I attended the graduation of my oldest son the college President said a remarkable thing:

      “No individual has integrity unless the institutions to which they are committed have integrity.”

      Clearly, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an institution without integrity. The church and its leaders lie about church history and doctrine. The church engages in political activity that undermines constitutional values, and they promote familial strife as they attempt to use family bonds to coerce members to remain active against their will. I agree with the college president — I can be no more ethical than the institutions to which I am committed. It is, therefore, a direct assault on my personal and ethical integrity to be associated with the LDS Church, and so I insist that you process my resignation from your organization immediately.

  5. You can all argue, Im Scottish Presby, but Irish Catholic too which you all probably wouldn’t understand anyhows!! I find Mormons very tolerant and honest they are the only religion that can “Back Up” their findings! Remember my past before I get ill respondants!!

    • Duwayne Anderson

      You think Mormons can “back up” their claims?

      Okay. Then please provide the following “backup”

      1) References from peer-reviewed scientific journals supporting the Book of Mormon claims that the ancient Americans were Hebrews, domesticated horses, cultivated Old World plants, smelted steel, and used the Hebrew and Egyptian languages. That’s just a small sampling of Book of Mormon claims — start with those, and if you can support them, I’ll give you more.

      2) References from peer-reviewed scientific journals supporting the authenticity of Joseph Smith’s “translation” of the papyri used in the Book of Abraham.

      Seriously, dude. If you think that Mormons can back up *any* of their non-trivial claims, then you either don’t know squat about Mormonism, or you don’t know squat about science.

  6. I grow up in the Mormon doctrine , my grand mother was one of the first Mormon members in el salvador, I raised believing that everything Mormon religion teach is true….. MORMON RELIGION hurt people , separate families with their doctrine…. Is something that I can’t changed in my life but being in the Mormon church caused me a lot of suffering … Its funny right now to remember those differents bishops during all those years that i was a active member who accused me of being not a good person cause I drink coffe or bought something on Sunday they left the church cause somebody got them stealing from the church…. I believe that God exist but I believe the Mormon church is a fraud , full of lies ….

  7. LDS members seem more bigoted, close minded, ignorant than the average person. Any insular group with radical ideas regarding reality would be. It shouldn’t be surprise. I’m glad I made the decision to leave. My life has become infinitely more fulfilling and meaningful. To each their own.

      • Duwayne Anderson

        The comments weren’t “mindless,” and they were no more negative than the Book of Mormon’s discourse on the “Church of the Devil,” or Joseph Smith’s characterization of other religions being an “abomination.”

        And let’s not forget the Mormon Church’s tens of thousands of missionaries who teach people all about the great apostasy of the Catholic Church. Catholics are decent people — who are Mormons to tell them that their church is apostate?

        I assume you believe your missionaries are “fulfilled.” It seems hypocritical of you to complain that others, doing to you what you do to others, are less fulfilled than you guys are.

  8. Duwayne, the time and energy you’ve spent on this thread reminds me of Alma 47:36 Now these dissenters, having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, yea, having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate, not long after their dissensions they became more hardened and impenitent…

    • Duwayne Anderson

      Why should you object to others discussing these issues? *You* discuss them. How much “time and energy” to you spend?

      And what is the point of quoting Mormon mythology? I can do that too, and far more effectively.

      For example, your behavior, and the behavior of the LDS Church, is just like Satan’s plan in the pre-existence (part of Mormon mythology) in which Satan and his followers sought to destroy agency by *forcing* others to behave according to their dictates.

      That’s the problem with Mormonism — you guys think you have not only the right but the obligation to use the government to force others to live by your religious precepts; thus you are following/advocating Satan’s plan.

  9. Hello Friends,

    I have read this thread with great interest. Mr. Anderson has certainly been candid about his feelings yet there is much we do NOT know about him. He clearly knows the lingo, the culture, structure and organization of the Mormon Church. He is able to look up and quote chapter and verse from various materials as well as anyone. He has highly refined and well thought out talking point responses to every query and statement addressed to him. He is schooled and educated as his grammar, spelling and command of language appear to be in top form. And he states that he feels far happier in his current atheist state than he was in his former Mormon state.

    Let me share on observation. Throughout my life there seem to be two great “forces” at work in the observable world. There is a force which builds things up and there is a force which tears things down. I understand that due to “chaos” or lack of organization, things tend to deteriorate. That’s not what I am talking about. Both the building up and tearing down forces I observe are organized and each has a specific mission or intent.

    Let’s take the building up force. The Boy Scouts would be an excellent example of the building up force. A person (Baden Powell) had a vision/dream/desire to create an organization for young men to build character and moral values. Drawing on his personal experience as a soldier he exerted his will, energy, etc and started the movement. He was quickly joined by like-minded people who also were willing to undertake the effort of building up the organization as a reflection or result of Baden Powell’s original vision. Today the Boy Scouts is a world-wide movement devoted closely in all countries to holding up or continuing to build upon the original vision of Baden Powell.

    In a similar fashion, Joseph Smith was the person who had the original vision/dream/desire to build up what he believed was the kingdom of God. Like Baden Powell he was quickly joined by like-minded people who accepted and/or shared this vision/dream/desire and the Mormon Church was born. Like the Boy Scouts the Mormon Church is today a world-wide movement whose members voluntarily donate their time and talent to performing 100′s of thousands of hours of charitable service worldwide. As one of the charter organization to the National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disasters, the Mormon church rubs shoulders with the worlds biggest and best relief organizations (Catholic Charities, Feed America, Lutheran Disaster Services, etc) to deliver charitable acts of kindness, disaster relief supplies and planes and truck loads of needed commodities to any spot on the globe within a few hours.

    So, if the Mormon people are driven to these acts of goodwill and kindness on a world-wide basis by whatever myths they believe, how can one fault the results? Whether one believes in the doctrines taught or not, whether one enjoys or hates the culture, by what logic or reason can one possibly say bad things about the Mormons?

    Here is the answer. It’s the other force, the tear down force I mentioned earlier. Again, referring to the Boy Scouts as an example of an organization built up to good works over time by like-minded people I will demonstrate the effect of opposition. There are people at work even now who are attempting to shutdown the Boy Scouts. They expend great sums of money and time in this endeavor. These “tear downers” are best characterized by their implied motto, “If I can’t belong, then I will see to it that no one can.” They want to change the Boy Scouts to suit themselves. They did not help build it up but they now want to be part of it. There is just one problem. They do not want to adhere to the standards of the organization in order to derive the benefits that membership affords. They want to enjoy the good name of the organization, the outdoor experience, etc but they don’t want God to be part of it or they don’t want “morally clean” to be part of it, etc. So rather than putting their energies into building up a new Boy Scout-like organization which they could fashion as they see fit, they are determined to either change the Boy Scouts or destroy it so no one can benefit. The Boy Scouts have so far withstood these tear down efforts and remain true to the original vision of Baden Powell.

    So too, there are many who seek to tear down other worthwhile organization like the Mormon Church. Rather than happily joining other atheists and riding off to build up whatever organization might promote the positive aspects of atheism, Mr. Anderson and others of his ilk can see only one choice and that is to attack and attempt (unsuccessfully) to tear down the Mormon church because they were unable to change it to fit their vision/dream/desire of what a religious body should be.

    I harbor no animosity toward Mr. Anderson. Rather I am quite sympathetic. While he claims great happiness in his post Mormon life, his comments are anything but those of a happy person as someone else observed. Mr. Anderson, take all this energy and go make something. Leave the Mormons alone because they are out there despite you and are doing great good. If Mormon leaders tell the followers that legalized immorality is still immoral, what’s it to you? Why do you care? You are not a Mormon anymore and you are “free” of it all. Despite the “myths” and delusions you say drive them, they have built up something very good. Now go and do likewise.

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