Megachurch pastor Mark Driscoll claims that his books were confiscated at the Strange Fire conference put on by another megachurch pastor John MacArthur.

Driscoll, who pastors Mars Hill Church in Seattle, is a reformed pastor who is more open to charismatic theology. MacArthur, who pastors Grace Community Church in southern California and has been named in the top 10 most influential pastors in a survey by LifeWay Research, has long criticized the charismatic movement, calling it “a farce and a scam.”

Security confiscated my books. #strangefire

However, Driscoll’s claim is being disputed.

Rich Gregory, assistant to John MacArthur, said he was there when it happened and that Driscoll’s books were not confiscated and there was nothing confrontational.

“It was great, we were happy to have him at the conference. He brought books to hand out. We explained to him that all the books distributed on campus need to be approved. He told us that he wanted them to be a gift to us from him. One of our conference directors took that gift and brought them up to the offices. If you hear from him and he wants them back, we can send those back if he wants them. We were not looking at him like, ‘Boy you’re trying to stir up controversy.’ I don’t want to judge his motives for what he wasn’t trying to do. I wish they had actually stayed for the actual content of the conference.”

A call to Mars Hill has not been returned.

Both pastors have new books they are promoting.

Driscoll, who has been in Long Beach, California, for a conference called “Act Like Men,” also posted earlier this week on the Holy Spirit, one of the three persons of the trinity and central in charismatic teaching.

“In more fundamental tribes, the Holy Spirit has two primary ministries: to write the Bible and convict us of sin. Basically, you are a nail, the Bible is a hammer, and the Holy Spirit’s job is to pound you,” he wrote. “In charismatic tribes, the fruit of the Spirit is emphasized: the Holy Spirit is the one who causes our character to become more like Jesus’ as we pray and worship passionately.”

MacArthur’s conference of about 4,000 people, ends tonight. The schedule included others like Joni Eareckson Tada and R.C. Sproul.

“Our intention is to see this issue discussed broadly,” Gregory said. “We’re trying to have an honest dialogue about what scripture says about these issues.”

Charisma, a magazine for the charismatic movement, published a column earlier this week by Michael Brown pleading with MacArthur to reconsider his conference.

“In this book, Pastor MacArthur argues, ‘The ‘Holy Spirit’ found in the vast majority of charismatic teaching and practice bears no resemblance to the true Spirit of God as revealed in Scripture,’ even accusing the modern charismatic movement of attributing the work of the devil to the Holy Spirit,’ Brown writes.

“In fact, he claims that leaders of the movement are ‘Satan’s false teachers, marching to the beat of their own illicit desires, gladly propagat[ing] his errors. They are spiritual swindlers, con men, crooks, and charlatans.’”

The charismatic movement in the U.S. was begun by Episcopal priest Dennis Bennett in 1960. Its parent movement, Pentecostalism, promoted practices such as speaking in tongues and prophesying.

There are about 300 million charismatics in the world, and pentecostals and charismatics make up nearly 30 percent of Christians, according to the Pew Research Center on religion.

Some tweets add context to the debate:

Editor’s note: This story will be updated as more information becomes available.

206 Comments

  1. Oh please. The charasmatic movement is evil and I can’t believe that you would stand behind the wack jobs who lie and claim to have these gifts. Healings that cannot be verified. Tongues that are out of control with no interpretation. People jerking around like demoniacs. Shaking. Babbling. No understanding of docterine. How can you?

    • Art Ellingson

      I’m sorry, are you talking about the second chapter of acts, the Corinthian church, or present day? I’m confused.

      Next we will hear that Jesus was false because one of His followers denied Him… Three times, and another betrayed Him for money, and the rest just walked away.

      The problem with arguing against the gifts, the fruit, and the sanctifying actions of the Holy Spirit inn the church today is the vast amount teaching and instructions in the bible. Then after reading about it you can just about walk to a church in you local community a see it for yourself.

    • Please pause before you label over 500 million people on earth as “evil”. The stereotype you’re touting is offensive and disrespectful. If you disagree, that’s fine. Just don’t be a condescending jerk about it.

      • Here’s the reality… The Pentecostal/Charismatic churches have people that travel from church to church in order to TEACH people how to speak in tongues. Last I checked, it was something that GOD did between the speaker and the hearer (see the book of Acts). If you have to be TAUGHT how to do it, then IT IS NOT FROM GOD!!! If they’re not teaching it, they are ENTICING it, forcing people to respond bogusly because they want something they think is an integral evidence of being a Christian–when Scripture DOES NOT affirm such lies. Furthermore, the fact most Pentecostals/Charismatics put so much emphasis on speaking in tongues (a fact Paul condemned in the Corinthian church) and think you need to do it to be a Christian, evidences that THEY ARE EVIL! Here’s a little lesson for you in regard to spiritual gifts… EVERYBODY DOES NOT HAVE THE EXACT SAME SET OF GIFTS!!! The Pentecostal/Charismatic individuals would do well to study the passages in the Greek and the Greek terms used, because what these terms actually mean reveal a completely different understanding than the false interpretation given by the false teachers of Pentacostalism/Charimaticism.

        • Where you get your information about Pentecostals and what they do is a good question. I am a Pentecostal pastor and I have never in our church or in the circle of churches that I am overseer of have never taught anyone to speak in tongues. Your second crazy thought is, except for one fringe pentecostal group,one must speak in tongues to be saved, that is a lie. I would suggest that you seek and verify your information before you post it as Pentecostal beliefs. We preach that salvation is a gft from God to the world, the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is solid biblcial doctrine, is Gods gift to His church.
          I have not studied Greek or Hebrew, I study in the language I understand. I hope you are not assuming that the leaders and learned people in the Pentecostal movement are not educated people and therefore have never studied what you are implying that you have. Anyway this is not the time and or place to post what’s wrong with the Pentecostal movement. In fact we consume our energy sharing Jesus with the lost.

          • lisa longoria

            I do believe in speaking in tounges, however I believe we are to seek Jesus first He is the gift giver. I will say that I my husband went up for prayer once to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tounges. He did not receive it at that time and was told to fake it until he made it. This made him very uncomfortable. Now he doesn’t believe it is for him.I do not think we should be telling people to fake it until they make it. The Holy Spirit isn’t fake. I also think that the prosperity message is false and has caused alot of problems.I think there needs to be much repentance for this self centered aragonite message.We to to get back to the basics of Gods Word.

          • Joseph,let me give you a little help on studying the art of con-men who founded the pentecostal movement: Charles Parham, William J. Seymour for starters, feel free to move onto Aimee Mcpherson for giggles. Don’t read bias material of any sort, but look at what they actually did and the scandals associated with it. I bet you are a fan of Billy Grahm too aren’t you? Though Billy never spoke in tongues, he must be spirit filled right? Use your brain, Pentecostals shame Christianity and make it hard for real Christians to share the Gospel because they watch your folks antics.

    • Most of the people here offering a negative view of the Pentecostal/ Charismatic movement appear to not know anything about it. You people speak of the few bad cases that you hear of on tv or in the news, these are but a minority of the movement and unfortunately give the whole movement a bad name. These cases that you speak of are not indicative of the whole movement. I do not know of the “agendas” of either pastor but I choose to ignore this conference, such matters are best left up to actual academics.

      • I came out of a Pentecostal church many years ago that wasn’t as out of control as many of the modern Charismatics seem to be. The close friends I had in the church were true Christians and they loved the Lord. However, over the years, I started to notice weaknesses in many areas in the understanding and teaching of Scripture. The people who spoke in tongues didn’t understand what they were saying. The people who supposedly interpreted didn’t know what they were saying either. One person who gave an interpretation of a tongues speaker said he didn’t understand what he said, he was just “responding to his spirit” (small ‘s’). Uh?? They also believed that certain people had the gift of healing, The pastor’s daughter, who was bedridden and critically ill, was taken to a faith healer where there was a large crowd. She was brought to the stage, she stood up, and healing was claimed. She died the next week. Unfortunately, Charismatic teaching (?) is all over the map today and I’m afraid for the young people who are falling under extremely bad teaching, and often missing the true gospel and depending on emotional experiences. My wife and I didn’t want to raise our children in a church that seemed to depend more on experiences and emotion rather than Scripture. I’m so grateful to the Lord for the perfect wisdom that is in His Word. (2 Timothy 3:16-17; Ps.19; 119)

      • MOST of the cases are bad. Find me a legitimate case where the church isn’t engaged in foolerly, such as supposed gold dust appearing on people, or their teeth getting gold fillings, or unbiblical nonsense like that that has NOTHING to do with any truths revealed in the Bible. Read the testimonies of ex-ministers from these groups who admit to the things they were doing and how they didn’t see the actual Spirit of God moving. They sing for long periods of time because it disorients people and makes them open to suggestions, like fake healings, etc. Most the authors from these groups are charlatans and frauds, lining their pockets with money while lying to the poor individuals they are robbing blind. Apart from the rare churches in this movement that are ashamed of the foolery practiced at large by the majority of it, you have no case in your defense. There is a vast difference between signs and wonders and charismata. Do your homework and see what those are.

    • Obviously, you’ve never been outside or spent much time in other countries! Casting out of demons happens A L O T in other countries! Let me make sure you are clear on what I’m not saying by that statement…. demonic possession is not only in other countries but America as well.

      • Demon possession is a REAL thing, yes. However, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for a Christian to be possessed by a demon, let alone multiple demons, as many of these churches falsely teach. They also falsely teach the encouragement to “bind” these various demons, which is something they are NOT capable of doing. Satan is wiser and stronger than you are. Look what happened when Eve tried to match wits with him. Even Michael the archangel, who is ALSO wiser and stronger than you are, DID NOT contend with Satan. The Bible tells us to “RESIST” the devil–NOT to try and go toe-to-toe with him… because YOU WILL LOSE!!! Jesus is the one with the power to take him on. These singers who sing about beating up demons are under the influence of false doctrine and false teaching. You attempt that and you will lose. “RESIST”ing is NOT confronting. Paul didn’t try to take on demons; he directed them toward Jesus and because of the person and name of Jesus, they left. NOT because of Paul. Christ may dwell in you, but HE is still the only one who can cast out demons, which is why you direct them to HIM. You don’t try to go toe-to-toe with them. Once again, “RESIST the devil”–NOT contend with him.

    • Kathy McGowan

      You are dead wrong on this. I was on narcotic pain meds for 18 years for chronic back pain. I read in the scripture where Jesus had healed a lady with a spirit of infirmity for 18 years. I claimed that for myself. Problem is I had my timeline wrong when I read it. I thought at that point it was 18 years. When nothing happened I just figured I was Wrong, and I wasn’t to be healed. A few months later there were some circumstances that compelled me to wean myself off the drugs. I was on OxyContin 40 mg 4x a day, and Percoset 4x a day as needed. I was off all those drugs in 2 weeks with almost no withdrawal. My back was healed and I became drug free. Oh, and I ran the numbers again, and it turned out that it wasn’t 18 years until the time I was healed. I was wrong a few months earlier when I first claimed that scripture. This is just one of the many things The Lord has done for me.

      • You were wrong. You CANNOT claim those kinds of things for yourself. They have NOTHING to do with you. The who act of “claiming” is a false teaching based on the false doctrine of devils. THIS is the problem with this movement. Taking random passages and ripping them from their context in order to “claim them” for themselves. Sorry, but it DOES NOT work like that. A promise made to a specific person in the Bible, you CANNOT claim that promise for yourself. You can LEARN from it, but that promise was given to THEM–NOT to you.

    • Wow, I love the Christian evidence given to clearly show the obvious errors of Christianity. It is convincing, and helps me to understand much better. I used to admire John Wesley, Count Zinzindorf, George Fox (founder of the Friends “Quackers”), and many more recognized leaders, their movements, and every major revival, all of their histories and journals filled with story after story of healing and the miraculous? Now I can dismiss all of that as being the evil, unverified work of wack [sic] jobs who went around shaking and quacking and babbling. Oh, I forget to include that whack job, Jonathon Edwards, whose revival included the very same elements.

      I am only happy that the healing and miraculous ministry of Christ was substantiated by existing Synagogue, medical, and court documents from His day.

      Its also good, ac, to know you were there at many of these so-called healings to assure us that they didn’t happen.

      Oops, I forgot, I have actual videos of miracles, the testimonies of recipients, in meetings held by David Herzog. Available on request, bobsands333@yahoo.com

      • Have we all become so intelligent that we have forgotten the two greatest commandments ….Love God and Love each other. It doesn’t always matter whose theology is more precise. Loving people is the greatest sign of a true follower of The Lord Jesus Christ. I’m a full believer in debating and searching for answers, but if you cannot love your enemies, at the end of the day it doesn’t matter how knowledgeable a person is.

      • It’s quite simple. You want to verify your false claims, then provide the verifiable evidence thereof. You claim you have the gift of healing, then walk into a hospital and start healing the sick and needy individuals there. You can’t? Dispute settled! You’re a fraud and a charlatan.

        Study the difference between “signs and wonders” and “charismata.” Look up the Greek word for the gift of “healing” and you’ll find it has NOTHING to do with physical healing, but with the ability to “heal” a person’s spirit/soul/heart by your words; i.e., a word of encouragement. Every time you talk to people, you just seem to be able to do what others who say the same things can’t do. “Signs and wonders” were always for a limited time to verify the message of the individual. The “charismata” (spiritual gifts”) are ENTIRELY and COMPLETELY different from the signs and wonders. Different operations and functions. Try reading the ENTIRE Bible instead of the random isolated passage you want to malign and twist for your own feelings and opinions–EISEgesis.

    • alan johnson

      According to Acts 1 the CRITERIA for the 12th Apostle were given. Paul/Saul fulfilled ZERO of them.
      What was Jesus’ mode/method?

      Taking someone out in the desert for 14 years? Teaching by a spirit? The Dead Sea Scroll of James outed Saul as the false apostle, as did Rev.2 and I John etc.
      Compare paul/saul “theology” with OT/NT unified. It is 100% another “gospel” just as he wrote in Gal.
      1/2 the NT is bogus. Guess which half.

      • @alanjohnson. Sorry to contradict you Alan. Acts 1: 21-22 clearly delineates the criteria for being the substitute apostle: constant companion of the other apostles and witness of the resurrection of Jesus. The first criterion was rejected for its exclusivity (God is seeking oneness for His People), and the second one was approved by God who allowed Saul/Paul to “witness” the resurrected Christ on the road to Damascus. Finally, it is affirmative that Paul is the apostle chosen to replace Judas, for apart for his letters to the Thessalonians and Philemon, all of Paul’s epistles are introduced with his claim to godly apostleship.

        • Sorry, but you are completely in error. I suggest you get your information from Scripture and don’t make it up as you go. According to Acts 1:26, Matthias is the chosen replacement for Judas. Do you know what context is? Follow verses 23-25 after 21-22. Paul did not see what these men saw; a vision is not the same as a literal, physical witness. Paul was chosen as the Apostle to the Gentiles. His ministry was unique. The words of Acts 1:23-25 clearly tell you who the replacement for Judas is. Do you not believe what Scripture has written?

      • Sorry, buddy, but your information is dead wrong. If Paul was a false apostle, then why did Peter refer to his writing as “Scripture”? See 2 Peter 3:14-18. Paul was not the replacement for the 12; he was the apostle appointed unto the Gentiles. 1 John and Revelation 2 say nothing in regard to Paul. Doubtful the Dead Sea Scrolls do either. Rather than being spoon-fed and believing utter nonsense, try doing your own homework and study.

  2. I glad a pastor finally had the courage to speak the truth for Christ sake and his truths sake. Charismatic teachers want your money and glory. Shame on them .Thank you Dr. John MacArthur for doing the right thing. I know you do your homework and have been for a long long time. I doubt most of the charismatic teachers have spent a fraction of the time you have studing God’s Word! Iv heard these false teachers for years and they only have only three sermons-Health, wealth, and prosperity. And the only people who are healthy, wealthy and prospering are these false teachers. Shame on them for using poor needy people.

    • Art Ellingson

      Bearing false witness is a sin. Slander also. My earthly father was a charismatic Lutheran pastor. He did not choose this in order to pad his wallet. Rather one day while praying he asked God to help him as he was overwhelmed by his own weaknesses. To his shock he began speaking in tongues.

      His income actually declined after that. Just try speaking in tongues and then get a job in the Lutheran church. :(

      When you lie, slander, and bear false witness against charismatics, you sin against both God and mr father.

      • Feelings and opinions don’t determine truth, regardless of what your father experienced. Experiences do not interpret Scripture either. Chances are, if what you are saying is true, it is something that happened between HIS SPIRIT and GOD (as Corinthians talks about). It is NOT something to be done publicly, NOR is it a requirement of every Christian. Read the context of both books that deal with tongues. In Acts, they were CLEARLY known human languages. Go read the passage. In Corinthians, it appears to be different, but Paul condemns the Corinthians for seeking it because of its showiness–the same thing the Charismatic movement utilizes their false “tongues” for. The fact they have to TEACH you to do it should inform you IT IS NOT FROM GOD!

    • MacArthur regularly makes false arguments and faulty assumptions. His emotions get all tangled up with Scripture, so he demeans Christians who disagree with him. He needs to stop acting like a bully and learn humility.

      • Autumn,
        It is unChristian and sinful to make broad claims without example and specifics to tarnish a mans name. If you were to watch or listen to the conference you would be hard pressed to cite examples where JM gets involved in false arguments and false assumptions as the conference was riddled with examples from the heretical to the absolutely demonic and in his final appeal he called out to faithful god-fearing and Christ and Holy Spirit Loving pastors and Believers to merely wake up to the fact that this movement is not long on accountability and the claims made are sorely in need of critical review.
        THE most loving thing one can do is speak truth to another at risk of losing their friendship. It is downright demonic and evil to assure someone they are at peace with God when their lives and actions and words do not demonstrate such a thing is the case. James 5:19-20
        19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
        What was on display to me was a faithful demonstration of Pauls appeal to Timothy in 2nd Timothy 2:22-25
        22 So flee youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart. 23 Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24 And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
        Opponents corrected with gentleness – an appeal to read the book or soon available transcripts of all messages and with Bible in hand be like the Bereans and see if these truths be up to Scripture. That is the appeal that those caught up in Charismatic Movement might come to their senses and be granted repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth.

        • You have said this well. John MacArthur is speaking out in love with his warning to those who are caught up in the charismatic movement. I hope those who initially react with criticism will take the time to watch the ENTIRE Strange Fire Conference, read the scriptures, and ask God to reveal the truth to them. Everything is at stake, so I hope they do.

          • MacArthur does a good job exposing the false and demonic components of the Charismatic movement, but in trying to answer the fraudulent things these groups attribute to the Spirit, he errs by putting God in a box and denying He can do such things if He desires. There are GENUINE cases of these sorts of things happening (according to Scripture), but they are RARE!!! The fact the counterfeit stuff exists is evidence that the genuine MUST exist, otherwise why counterfeit it? If America did away with paper bills, why would anyone counterfeit them any more? The passage MacArthur refers to DOES NOT say what he tries to tell people that it does. In trying to respond to the demonic practices of the Charismatic movement on one end of the pendulum, MacArthur swings to the entire other side of the pendulum. The balance is in the middle. This “snorting Bible lines,” “toking the cross,” playing “spin the Bible” and “claim” a verse for yourself, being “high on the Spirit” or “drunk on the Spirit,” or any of a hundred other things I could list belong entirely to the devil. Find one verse in the Bible where a Christian is or can be possessed by a demon. Another false teaching by this movement. The shivering, shaking, quaking, and writhing on the ground has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit. Provide me a verse. Provide a verse for the “slain in the Spirit” nonsense. If you have to be taught tongues, or have such a “gift” enticed out of you, IT IS NOT FROM GOD! So in exposing these demonic errors, MacArthur does an excellent job. But his assertion of complete cessation is unbiblical, considering the Bible says, “So that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift” (1 Cor. 1:7). He is also in error with his eschatological interpretations, but that’s a different subject.

        • Are you being serious? He is not lovingly correcting and helping these poor naive charismatics, giving them fatherly wisdom. He is gathering men, just like himself, with the same beliefs as himself. Pointing at their doctrines, practices,etc. and rallying Pastors,leaders, churches who already see it in the same manner that he sees it. If you have been to any conference then you know that the birds of a feather are flocking together. If he was looking to help the charismatics, then at what point did he GO TO THEM, in a spirit of meekness, in order to recover them. I will be impressed if he calls for a meeting and asks only charismatics to attend and then speaks to them as people who love Jesus, pray, read their bibles(yes many of them read their bibles), witness to sinners, are involved in missions, helping the poor,etc. And expresses some humility, some meekness, and a genuine concern for the people. Instead of speaking down to them like they are all morons. If this is Fatherly, then call CPS. and protect the children. If you truly understood the nature of deception then you would show a little more compassion for those caught up in it, and understand that they do not know that they are deceived. And he is not helping by talking about them. Go to them like the bible says. Uh oh, did he seek to restore them in an unbiblical manner? Strange fire! Strange Fire!

        • I once sat with one my clients, a Pentecostal preacher, and simply read through I Corinthians chapters 12 through about 16. We just read the scriptures. After reading, I asked him if they practiced the speaking in tongues as described in the texts we read. He said no. I asked why not. He simply stated he did not care what the scriptures said and that he and his church would do what they felt like no matter what the Bible says. Nuff said.

      • ummmm, it is wrong to have your “emotions tangled up in Scripture,” as you put it , Autumn? Is not all Scripture inspired of God and profitable for reproof (rebuke of false teachers included)? The overwhelming issue with being charismatic is not the fact that one is labled a charismatic, it is the emotionalism that comes from it that is cleary not grounded in Scripture. Scripture is what the Holy Spirit bases His moving on in our lives, not some high-fluting experience of shaking on the ground, grunting and laughing. John MacArthur actually has a responsibility before the Lord God (as do we all) to call out false doctrine and false teachers. Especially those who name the name of Jesus, but continually lay a guilt trip on all of their viewers to send in money for healing, wealth, etc….

        Please name or list one faulty accusation or argument that MacArthur has made that he did not do his homework on or that he never humbly apologized for. Are you not making a faulty assumption by labeling God’s minister as a bully?

        • Can you prove that scripture is what the Holy Spirit basis his movement on in our lives? On what scriptural basis did He move on Samson? I don’t remember reading about a scripture confirming Samson’s type of ministry. I think that Samson was the first to be used like that. Probably a good thing that he did not refuse to kill philistines on the premise that he has never read about his type of ministry in the scripture. How about the angelic visitations, visions, dreams, prophecies, that all came to abraham, Jacob, Enoch, Joseph,etc… All before scripture. There was not a scriptural record or a previous record in scripture of mud being used to open blind eyes, or of speaking in tongues before the day of Pentecost, or of handkerchiefs and aprons being used to work special miracles. Maybe some people should spend more time studying scripture instead of parroting self appointed know it all’s, giving themselves the claim of also being a know it all. Search the scripture for in them you think that you have eternal life, but these are the scriptures that testify of me. They knew the scripture…they thought, but did not know Him. Blinded by their knowledge of scripture which is also deception. Both camps are in danger, and both may be to proud to see it.

          • You demonstrate the height of your scriptural ignorance. If you have this much spiritual blindness in understanding the Scriptures, then I would suggest you examine yourself as to whether you are an actual Christian. 2 Cor. 13:5.
            You do realize the Spirit had different operations from the Old Testament to the New, right? That he was not indwelling in the Old? You would benefit from studying Pneumatology.
            I’ll give you a helpful hint: context, Context, CONTEXT! Keep that in mind every time you read.

      • Autumn: Look around the secular world. There are many who talk about freedom and justice, but very few who spend years of training and hard work in tremendous danger to actually go and do battle with the enemies of freedom and justice in Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia. The same is true for most of us, regretfully, me also. We are content to listen to comforting sermons, eat church pot lucks and go back to our six day week never mentioning the name of Christ to a friend or neighbor.
        On the other hand, there are warriors like John MacArthur and others who are concerned for the preservation of the liberty we find in Christ, and who battle constantly against the foes of Orthodoxy. We are already way too “PC”, politically correct, not wanting to offend anybody because of their deficiencies. Let’s not become “RC” or religiously correct, just because someone with a dangerous theology might be brought to shame.
        Blessings!

        • @ Bp. David. Although I do not agree entirely with Autumn’s use of hasty generalization to characterize JM, I must point to you however that she has a point. If JM want to combat the foes or orthodoxy, this is not the correct way of doing it, for not everyone who is charismatic is a heretic. For instance, the apostle Paul could speak in tongues more than many of his contemporaries, but he urged them to rather prophesy if their language could not be translated, as prophecy was a better gift (1 Corinthians 14:5). Therefore having the gift of tongues does not make you a heretic, but your speech must always edify. The disciples had the same tendency to try to silence those who did not act like them, but Jesus rebuked them (Mark 9:38). The real deal is that the church has to come as one, and being Charismatic or Pentecostal is not enough evidence on which to tag someone with heresy, and we risk slandering good servant of the Lord in the process.

          • Not true. Again, read the Bible. Do you know what “tongues” is? The Greek word refers to “languages.” When Paul said, “I thank God, I speak in [languages] more than you all.” Are you aware that Paul knew 4 languages fluently?
            When he said, “If I speak with the [languages] of men and of angels” (1 Cor. 13:1), he WAS NOT saying he spoke in the languages of the angels. Note that little word “IF.” He is giving an example. Charismatics would do well to pay attention to context (and words–ahem, “IF”) and note the “but do not have love…” He DID NOT say he could speak the language of angels. The context of everything he said from 13:1-3 is that IF he has all these things and does all these things, but does not have love, then ALL OF IT is worthless and meaningless.
            Charismatics would do well to pay attention to the WORDS and CONTEXT of 1 Corinthians 14.
            “For one who speaks in tongues DOES NOT speak to men.” They do not understand, unless it is the tongues as witnessed in Acts, where when you do it, someone of a different language understands EXACTLY what you said in “THEIR OWN LANGUAGE.”
            “One who speaks in tongues edifies HIMSELF.” In other words, it is a SELFISH gift.
            Note what he says in verses 6-9, especially verse 10.
            He says in verse 12, “Since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification OF THE CHURCH.” What did he just say in verses 2 and 4? Tongues DOES NOT edify the church. THEREFORE, if a person actually possesses the gift, it is NOT something to be done in church. Furthermore, NOT everyone has the same gift, so an entire church focused on trying to achieve this gift (as the Corinthians were trying to do) and having to TEACH it demonstrates it is false. Pure and simple.

      • I was saved in 1972. I was born in Cuba. Came to the USA in 1959 with my mom,dad and one sister. I new absolutely nothing of being saved. After 2 years of struggling to understand the bible a pastor pray for me with the laying of the hands, I really didn’t want him to pray for me. I ended up laughing at the whole thing. The next morning as I kneel to pray I ask the Lord to give me the gift of tongues if He wanted. To my surprise I started to speak in so many different languages it tuck by breath away. To make a long story short, the bible became so real to me ;when I read it, I had a vision from God, the power of God fell on me for about a month I tuck my 8 month daughter and went door to door witnessing about Jesus, some people got saved. I became and evangelist since that day. I have led many people to the Lord. I have gone to allot of suffering but I am still in one piece, and I have keep going.I am so glad that Mr. MacArthur was not in the scene in l972 . I once was blind and now I can see. Pastor MacArthur is in real danger,because he is denying the Holy Spirit.! Pray for him, There comes a time when God will pull the rope. Gloria a Dios.!

        • Which languages were you speaking in? What does the Bible say about the gift of tongues? It is a sign for the Jews. Were there any Jews present? If none of these biblical criteria were present, then your experience is a false one. Sorry, but that is the reality of it.

          • Rylore, do you have a fb page, blogspot, internet site, anything I can follow you on so that I can study more at my pace. You are making much sense to me & I have left the grips of the churches because of the experiences that you name. I just need help understanding. Raised as a Jehovah Witness, as a teen experimented with the dark side, found true religion (I had thought) only to be felt like I was being controlled again. It was a Pentecostal church & YES they did teach or promote tongues & had everyone to do it at the same time. Sometimes some of the tongues sounded demonic! As long as I mindlessly did what THEY wanted me to do, I was good & even being groomed for positions that I kept saying I wasn’t ready for. Once I started questioning things or didn’t blindly follow, I got shunned very badly. It was torture & it made me feel like something was wrong with me. I eventually gave them what they wanted & left. I have been bitter since because of the hardships that I must continue to endure as I have all of my life. I would like help towards seeing the light. Thank you in advance.

          • Rylore, I’m on board with you man. Maybe we should gather all of the charismatic faith healers and see how they do at the hospital? I bet that would answer a lot of questions wouldn’t it? LoL

          • L. Thomas feel free to email me at baptistmarine@gmail.com and I’ll give you a list of references for truth for your own personal study. I’ll give you the names of Bible preaching churches in your area too if you’d like. I didn’t grow up in a Christian home myself, and through study I found out the Truth in Christ.

  3. With this display of fit & fib throwing? Mark Driscoll reveals that he has a charismatic/penecostal screw loose and sadly, Mark Driscoll even has my local conservative baptist minister fooled and following after his false teachings. Think about it. A conservative baptist church has been turned into a Church of The Tares. In 2013. Happily Strange Fire Conference is attempting to re-teach actual factual Scripture, and sound doctrine. Something my own 60 year old church now refuses to follow. May the DVD’s of this Conference, find their way back into my church library and elder board ears.

    • One can usually discern the Spirit of God by the way he/she speaks of others. Do you honestly believe it’s Christ-like to say that Mark Driscoll “has a screw loose”?

  4. I am awaiting purchase of mass copies of Strange Fire Conference.My entire city needs dozens of copies. As soon as they are availaible. It appears Mark Driscoll will not be purchasing any. I mean that would hurt book sales. If he re-directs people to just plain old reading The Bible. And not having to purchase another book of his “secrets” only he hears from Triune God…(things Jesus forgot to mention that only come to those in charismatic/penecostal earholes)

  5. John 21:25 says that there is Jesus-truth outside the printed word. John 14:12 says that we will do greater things than these (what Jesus did). I guess these defenders of the Bible don’t believe the Bible? http://wp.me/p2KckS-1im < Essay

    • John 21:25 refers to the eye witness accounts of what Jesus did, not interpretations of the bible. As for John 14:12, it refers to the miracles that Jesus performed in which christians are able to perform miracles greater than Jesus when one has faith as small as a mustard seed. It’s too bad that christians today have the knowledge of God, but deny his power.

    • The verse doesn’t say anything about “truth”. It simply says Jesus did things that weren’t written. So should we be worried about these unwritten things and do them? 1 cot 4:6 says we shouldn’t worry about what isn’t written, but that we should not exceed what IS written. Have to take the whole council of scripture

  6. I know neither of these men, nor their defense for God in a Country absorbed in sin. Their debates are futile in the eyes of God. Their riches will be destroyed, and the people will need to stand on their own accountability before God. Where are the bearers of the cross, come forth!

    • Well said. These mega T.V. so called preachers are a big sad joke and a disgrace to Creator God. And the people who follow them are just as bad. It is all about self, money and more self and more money. They should not even say they are followers of the Christ. They drag the name of Christ/God through their mud pit. You can’t serve two masters and they sure are not serving Christ by their actions and greed, hummm guess that leaves who they really are followers of.

      • jamesrrobison

        By “these mega T.V. so called preachers” I guess you mean Andrew Wommack, Kerry Shook, Dr. David Jeremiah, T.D. Jakes, Max Lucado, Jentezen Franklin, Ed Young, Charles Stanley, Jack Graham, Adrian Rogers, Jimmy Evans, and Bayless Conley, all of whom have shows airing this week on TBN. Please explain how you have secret insight to their hidden, evil agendas.

        • Any preacher who gets on T.V. and begs for money is for self. They sell prayer cloths, water, oil, and will say anything to get people to buy. Christ is not about this world , there is nothing wrong with money but don’t use Christ/Creator God to get it. You it seems do not know what the Bible really teaches.

        • Yep. Most of those names are false teachers and false prophets. Wolves in sheep’s clothing. Non-Christians. Study your Bible and get to know it inside and out. Then watch the majority of the people you named above and listen to their teachings. When you know your Bible, you’ll see their errors; their rotten fruit. Check Matt. 7:21-23. These people thought they were true Christians.

          • You need to go work and stop trying to correct everybody. Jesus said “let the blind lead the blind into the ditch”. Are you really God’s appointed man to correct everyone who seeks after God? Yes, apologetics is important, but I think the “correcting in a meek spirit” part is mission g brother….

      • I am so happy, onefeather, that we have someone like John M to stand apart from those ungodly, greedy Charismatics. Why, he wouldn’t drive around in anything but his old Geo Metro, or rake in a million $$ income, especially never encouraging the poor to give, in his “church”. I know he would never peddle the Gospel, as Paul Warned against.

        I remember in my non-Charismatic Bible School, passing the new Cadillac lot, I mean pastoral staff parking zone, and driving by their multimillion dollar house, they were also epitomes of blessed servant-hood as well.

    • I grew up in a fundamentalist Baptist Church. And don’t get me wrong—I believe the Bible and in all the tenets of Christianity. I do want to say though, that I observed many times a phenomenon I refer to as “dueling Bibles” in which self absorbed preachers vie for the position of who is “most right”. It made me tired and spiritually drained to listen to it. These guys displayed little, if any, true compassion. I think this is due to the fact that they are trying to defend the faith by their own strength rather than being truly personally surrendered to God or even knowing how to allow the Holy Spirit to work through them. They have reduced themselves to mere intellect.

    • Amen Jeffrey.

      Not only are we told that we can not do the works (miracles) of Christ as He PROMISED we can, we are also told we are can not be righteous and loving as Christ was as a mere 100% Spirit filled MAN in His earthly incarnation. This is contrary to a multitude of Scriptures.

      Was Christ the Second Adam, come to restore us to become NEW CREATIONS in Him, or NOT? We are ordained to be conformed (have the same form) to the IMAGE (likeness, image) of Christ (Rm 8:29), ie New Creation, not just an old sinner saved by grace.

      If it doesn’t work for you, don’t reinterpret Scripture, revise your understanding of yourself and your theology. Can it possibly be, if you are not doing the works of Christ, loving like Christ, living like Christ, again, contrary to a multitude of Scripture, the problem may be yours and your dogma?

  7. Dr. Bradley Smith

    I don’t know about their books, but I do have a book that I read quite often. Many people do not read it until the pastor asks them to open t on Sunday morning or flashes a snipet of it on a big screen (in or out of context who cares anymore these days). Christianity is not a Western religion that we have made it. The Bible is not about us, it is about God. It needs to be rightly handled as the Word of Truth. We need to understand what it means to the Author not what it means to us. Words have been redefined to mean different than what the Author intended. Tongues simply means languages not estatic babble and rolling on the floor making animal sounds. I would venture to say that both sides are probably pushing some kind of agenda and need to get back to the basics of understanding what the Author is saying seeing HIs Words through His eyes and ideas and not their own.

    • Brett Clements

      Dr. Smith, yes sir the Bible is God’s Revelation of Himself to man not mans finite interpretation of God. Yes, people need to return to Sola Scriptura. If you will research Dr. MacArthur at even short length you will find he has been a steadfast soldier championing the cause you call for. That is what Strangefire Conference is all about. MacArthur’s purpose has never been to sell books. If you read his books you will find the content is not the kind of information people pay money for to gain more worldly riches and/or acclaim. MacArthurs books contain wisdom that throughout history has caused men to be burned at the stake. History records great turning points when God raised up men to call the Church back to the Bible. When you found Dr. MacArthur and the Strangefire Conference you discovered a group of men God has prepared, equipped, and called to be this generations “Reformers” in light of the false teachings of the charasmatic movement celebraties. Much harm has been done that only Gods Grace will protect His Sheep from eternal consequence. May God use Strangefire Conference to open the eyes of many by the Light of Truth!
      Just for the record i have read both MacArthur and Driscoll’s material. I am not a financial supporter to either man nor their church, ministry, or affiliates. Therefore I am not biased, but I am a student of Scripture giving you my humble yet thoroughly researced accurate opinion.
      Blessings,
      Brett

    • I am in much agreement here. After traveling throughout the world (25 countries, 35 states) and encountering many religions, I am befuddled and appalled by the blindness of the charismatic movement. Upon encounter, I worshiped with them for about a year, just to examine their character. In all instances, those who spoke in tongues, threw themselves on the floor, or prophesied did not exemplify the fruit of the Spirit depicted in Gal. 5:22. Our daily walk and interactions with others will bear witness of who is in control of our vessel. These have to perfectly align, otherwise, we are merely being pretentious and falling victim to the deceitfulness of the enemy. Worship is always meant to glorify God and edify others to praise and glorify Him; it should never draw attention to the speaker.

    • AMEN!!! The first decent response I’ve seen on here. Charles Spurgeon once accused the members of his church, “There is dust enough on some of your Bibles to write ‘Damnation’ across it with your finger.” Jesus is NOT a password. He is the Master and He is the last word. Jesus said those who will enter heaven are “those who do the will of my Father.” People would do well to read MORE of their Bible and LESS of their favourite authors and study the Bible for themselves, asking the Holy Spirit to illuminate its truths to them and conform THEM to its truths and NOT its truths to them. Forget “MacArthur says this” and “Meyers says this” and “Hinn says this.” What does the BIBLE say? Too many people quote their favourite authors but fail to quote the Bible.

  8. We must stop putting aside the fact that God’s revelation continues — the Bible is a Living Word — and we must use our experience with others as part of our interpretation of that Word. The Charismatics I have known and know are people who produce great fruit for God. Whether or not charismatic theology is God’s favorite, I don’t know; but I do know God uses it and works through it. And Jesus said, if they’re not against us, they’re for us. We Christians must stop our bickering and start uniting over the Great Commission (thank you, Kent Hunter); otherwise, we are the stone God will cast into the sea!

    • Brett Clements

      Jude 1:3
      We are told to earnestly contend for The Faith Once Delivered. Carefully study the words and their meaning. That would be once. Once and for all. With no addition. Simply tell what God said in His Word. Paul often urged Christians to contend for The Faith. Remember The Faith. Preach No other Gospel. He marvelled how fast the Galatians were removed from the Gospel first preached. That would be The Faith once delivered. In Acts the message preached was always The Faith once delivered. Never a new message. Revelation from God will always be verifiable. Verification today is in accordance with the Faith Once Delivered. Truth is found in The Scriptures. Jesus said search the Scriptures for in them you think you have eternal life and these are they which testify of me.
      Gods Word has been under attack from the beginning of time and will be until all things are made new. Perseverance of the Saints will be by contending for The Faith ONCE delivered. That faith summed up with this:

      Sola Gratia – saved by grace alone
      Sola Fidé- through faith alone
      Sola Christus- in Christ alone
      Sola Scriptura- as set forth in Scripture alone
      Sola Deo Gloria- for God’s Glory alone

      It always saddens my heart to see anyone fall for what set “the fall” in motion;”yeah, hath God said………”

      • Those 16th century additions are not “the faith once delivered to the saints”. The faith was delivered to the saints in Jerusalem, Antioch, and Asia Minor, not Geneva or Wittenburg. Sheesh!

      • Was taught by a MacArthur ally. He told me god only spoke in the written word, but god spoke and speaks to me. He told me tongues were bogus, then recently at a church service tongues started welling up in me until I squelched them in shock. He told me the gifts of the apostles died with the apostles, and I’ve experienced those gifts including crazy healing and curse-breaking fruits. He taught me many things that god has shown me to be wrong? When we label groups we eliminate honest discourse. Am I a charismatic? I have no idea. I do know, as one who has believed for decades, that god is much more alive than many churches allow. I chose the second of my two options: stay humbly or leave quietly. My walk with Jesus is dramatically richer for it, and I love the bible and I love Jesus. I will not follow anyone who mitigates the Holy Spirit. I do not attend a charismatic church. I have brothers in Christ who do speak in tongues and I almost did. It is a gift my character is not yet sufficient to hold.

        • If a proponent of the truth speaks in spirit and truth with strength and tenderness, he will get my ear — at least long enough to discern as a Berean. When arrogance is the underlying motive, they have zero credence, regardless of what is said.

          Was taught by a MacArthur ally. He told me god only spoke in the written word, but god spoke and speaks to me. He told me tongues were bogus, then recently at a church service tongues started welling up in me until I squelched them in shock. He told me the gifts of the apostles died with the apostles, and I’ve experienced those gifts including crazy healing and curse-breaking fruits. He taught me many things that god has shown me to be wrong? When we label groups we eliminate honest discourse. Am I a charismatic? I have no idea. I do know, as one who has believed for decades, that god is much more alive than many churches allow. I chose the second of my two options: stay humbly or leave quietly. My walk with Jesus is dramatically richer for it, and I love the bible and I love Jesus. I will not follow anyone who mitigates the Holy Spirit. I do not attend a charismatic church. I have brothers in Christ who do speak in tongues and I almost did. It is a gift my character is not yet sufficient to hold.

    • No, revelation does not continue. The Bible is complete. There is NO new revelation being added. When the Spirit/ a spirit speaks to us, what is our measure of the truthfulness of the message? Scripture! If the message does not agree with what Scripture says, the message is false and so is the messenger. The Holy Spirit, or an angel of God, WILL NOT contradict the truthfulness of Scripture.
      If God chose to give us a message by dream, in a vision, by an angel, or whatever, the first test of whether it is from God is whether it agrees with Scripture or not. If it has to do with another person, the test of whether it was from God or not will be seen in the fact of whether it comes true or not. So if someone speaks a word of prophecy over you and nothing happens… it was NOT from God. See Deuteronomy on a false prophet presuming to speak for God.

  9. Seriously, mark! It does not take much commonsense that you just dont’ hand out books at a conference that another church has organised without their permission. This is just common courtesy! And considering the differences of belief this could be looked upon as mark trying to provoke Grace Community Church. Love does not provoke but love is long-suffering. I wonder which party was showing love. Umm… you don’t need to wonder too long!

    • Good point, Christine!

      I’m happy that Christ never showed up in another “brother’s” church, um Synagogue, and start preaching His true Gospel of deliverance, healing, and holiness. That would have been so unloving, impatient, provoking of Him!

      We always need to keep His example in mind. Wow, why didn’t I see that?

  10. Doug Sanderson

    This whole thing makes me think of the scripture in 1 Cor 1: 10-17. Sheesh even biblical history repeats itself. Please everyone, the world is watching . In love, Doug

  11. There’s more to this story and it’s covered in more detail. Mark Driscoll and Mega Pastor James MacDonald were on the way to James MacDonald’s conference “Act Like Men” also in CA.

    http://www.donotbesurprised.com/2013/10/acting-like-men-mark-driscoll-crashes.html#more

    This is a sad mess.

  12. Glenn Kowalsky

    Sort of funny, really to watch this…. They both agree that the earth is flat, but can’t agree on whether it rests on the backs of seven elephants, or an endless stack of turtles. Utterly delusional. Both.

    • Not as delusional as yourself, believing man evolved from a monkey and that he shares a common ancestor with a banana. Better stop eating bananas; could be one of your cousins. By peeling it, you’re uncovering its nakedness. Sicko! Fairy tale for grown ups, and you believe it with all your heart, mind, and soul. So which is funnier?

  13. True religion is the work of justice which is the purpose of government, and government is formed by the politics of the community. This is seen in James 1:27 “Pure religion.. to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction…” This passage is incomplete, it is referring to Isaiah 1:17 “Learn to do well. Seek justice. Relieve the oppressed. Judge the fatherless. Plead for the widow.” The religion of the God of Israel is to “seek justice” which is the work of law acting through agents of government, Specifically, we seek justice for the fatherless or orphans in the community through law and the courts. Additionally, true religion is to “plead for the widow”. We fulfill this by pro bono service. Pro bono is legal services provided “to those who are unable to afford them.” This is true religion according to Scripture. In summery, when we speak of true religion we speak of justice according to God’s law delivered to the rich and poor, without concern to cost. From Lex Rex, “Justice should be at as easy a rate…as a drought of water.” Based on this principle, Tocqueville is in error when supporting the separation of church and state at least in matters concerning God’s law. The Christian community at that time and currently is constructed on incorrect principles. They have built communities outside the judicial process and have relied upon interpretation of doctrine instead of obedience to the commandments. Instead of being a community of royal priests (lawyers) forcing the cause of justice in the courts (See Moses pleading in the tabernacle of God), they have isolated themselves from the process of justice and have become a factious group bickering over fabricated models of the” true church” even in violation of Paul’s warning in I Corinthians 1:12. “Now I mean this, that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” “I follow Apollos,” “I follow Cephas,” and, “I follow Christ.” Conclusion, Christians needs to get back to true religion which means becoming enlightened in law and using law to secure justice in their community *See Deut.6:6-11 Emer de Vattel: “justice is the basis of all society.” 296

    Isaiah 61:8 “For I the Lord love justice.”

    • That is funny..nothing Jesus lived, did or taught dealt with ‘government’. It was not the government’s job to attend the fatherless or to give a drink of water to the thirsty or to visit those in jail..it was the job of HIS children in His service..
      Jesus stated emphatically, MY kingdom is not of this world…

  14. MacArthur is on dangerous ground when he fights the greatest movement of the Holy Spirit on planet earth. All Praise to God for the charismatics and may they continue to take the world for Jesus. They are doing a phenonmenal work for the Kingdom.

    • That’s a rather tall presumption, attributing demonic nonsense to the Holy Spirit. Scripture informs us that the Spirit would point us to Christ Himself–not take honour for Himself. Where in Scripture does the Spirit teach us about “snorting Bible lines,” or “toking the cross,” or playing “spin the Bible” and “claiming” a random verse for ourselves (even though it has NOTHING to do with us), or acting “high in the Spirit,” or pretending to be “drunk in the Spirit, or do any one of a hundred ungodly anti-christ demonic superstitious things (such as what Peter Popoff does) for unscriptural blessings and greed…? Shall I continue? Writhing on the ground babbling while claiming to be “slain in the Spirit.” Show me Bible chapter and verse for this. You would do well to pray to God for wisdom, knowledge, understanding, and discernment, all of which you (and most Charismatics) are lacking in.

      • Rylore, the tallest presumption, and most dangerous ground–according to Jesus in the Scripture–is to label as “evil” or “demonic” the very Spirit of God. Perhaps you’re right… maybe something you saw one day was actually something demonic; I’m sure the Pharisees saw some false things, too. But when the Holy Spirit himself moved, and the “best” of the religious leaders looked at the manifestation and said, “This is demonic,” Jesus said that they had just committed an “eternal sin.” Here’s a simple question, with a simple answer: “According to Scripture, which error is more dangerous: Attributing a false sign to God’s hand, or attributing a work of the Holy Spirit to demons?” If you can’t answer that question honestly and Scripturally, you are just religious and self-deceived.

  15. Nathan (theology student)

    Acts 2:42-47 gives us a picture of how the early church started out. Verse 42 says that they devoted themselves to the Apostle’s teaching, fellowship, breaking of bread and prayer. Notice the order that Luke gives us; the number 1 priority was a commitment to the teaching of the Scriptures which was what we now refer to as the Old Testament. The point is this, the early believers were not making physical health and financial gain a priority. Their primary concern was not absolute comfort in terms of material things and health. Their primary concern was to know more about God as they were being transformed systematically into the image of Christ. It all started with a devotion to the Scriptures. Thank God for raising up men like Dr MacArthur who is totally committed to teaching the truth. Sola Scriptura…

  16. Excuse me…but there was no clash. There was one ARROGANT minister who instead of disagreeing respectfully with MacArthur, decided that he was going to act like a child and show up there trying to cause problems with the conference. A real man would have found another way to respectfully disagree with the strange fire conference. And why does he feel like he needs to interrupt this conference. There are plenty of conferences with doctrine that he doesn’t agree with going on all over the world. And he just happens to start trouble at this one. He is an ass. Plan and simple. Within the reformed community there is usually a respect that goes on…but not with this guy. And then to tweet about it like a little child. I just have no respect for this kind of behavior. He just wanted to get his name in the paper as far as I am concerned.

    • Wow…So, Christian, your comment using profanity (calling him an “a_ _”) IS being a respectful real man & not childish??? THAT was supposed to cause anyone who reads your comment to respect YOU??? When my kids were small, they would have been disciplined severely for using such language. As brothers in Christ, certainly we can do better.

      • Ah, gotta love it when the language police show up. Not everyone’s conscience is similarly wired on this issue, Jon. “Profanity” is subjective, cultural, and mutable across time. Don’t miss valid points people make because of a single word and don’t waste your time being *that* Christian who polices others’ language.

        • Don’t be the person trying to justify their sinful actions by trying to make someone else appear to be in the wrong. Your words here are akin to someone who’s done wrong attempting to call someone else a “rat” because they expose you. Profanity is NOT subjective. I suggest you spend some time earning a degree in English. When you call a donkey “ass” or a female dog “bitch,” your English usage is correct. When you use these as a slang to ad hominem another person, it is undeniably profanity. Quit attempting to call good bad and bad good.

    • Offering an alternative to what MacAuthur taught is not being childish…if MacAuthur is so confident, why try to suppress opposing views…why not display them and say here, read the proof of this charismatic heresy for yourself right here in Mark’s books :)
      I agree though, in a way…let the dead bury their own dead..those seeking the truth won’t be brainwashed by the suppression of truth, they will seek it out diligently..I have always found when a pastor or teacher tried chose prhases geared to instill fear in me the Holy Spirit reminded me,” I am your TEACHER…trust and follow me. Don’t be afraid to read and consider anything..I will reveal the truth and the deceptions. No human can do that for you because truth is Spirit revealed.”.

  17. The charismatics that I have know have been unsound biblically chasing some spiritual experience with their heads in the clouds and not planted on anything solid. And you keep talking about their “great fruits for God.” What great fruits for God? Loud worship? Emotional worship? What? I would like to know. Nothing good has come out of that movement. You think so? Then get on YOUTUBE and look up some of the Big Boys in that cult and start researching who these men and women are. They are rife with scandal and all sorts of drama that doesn’t not befit the orthodoxy christian church. Even the way that they go about these so called “healings” and tongues are so completely out of control. They don’t even fit Paul’s biblical mandate for how these sort of thing should happen. People are yelling together in “tongues” and there is never and INTERPRETER present. Complete and utter CONFUSION! These miracle healings are NEVER medically verified and usually only involve carpel tunnel or back pain. Something that no one can see. Whatever happened to raising people from the dead or lepers or any of the OBVIOUS and VERIFIABLE miracle that were done by Jesus and the apostles? If there are so many people raising people from the dead then why haven’t we ever seen one? Why are you hiding it? Produce it! I want to see this power. We all do. But this isn’t about glorifying God…it is about glorifying man. It is about a ponzi scheme. It is about people lying to the poor so that they can get their money. And all of you people who are so open to this…then WHY isn’t it happening at your church? You say we are open to it..but the way this happened in the 1st Century is that it was open and done for all to see. They didn’t hide it. Perhaps the cessationist group would change their tune if you could show them this power of God happening at your church. But you can’t. Because it isn’t. All you ever have to show are the liars and the scoundrels that talk about faith as a force and giving seed-gifts to them to get God to move. NONSENSE. And very very evil that you would continue to veil these sorts of charlatans from the reality of God.

  18. No movement (Charismatic in this case) should be judged by its abuses. Spiritual gifts are gifts of grace (unmerited favor) and as with all graces are given without regard to their use or misuse or the worthiness of the recipient. That they would be used by some greedily is no surprise. Speak against abuses, not the gifts of God’s grace.

    • I totally agree. It’s important to understand that we, as human beings, are susceptible to greed and incorrect use of the spiritual gifts he has been given. The Lord does not bestow gifts based on spiritual maturity, it is the responsibility of the gifted to determine how to properly use it for the good of the body and the glory of God. I don’t find it fair that an entire movement of brothers and sisters in christ is being viewed as satanic because a few people have misused their gifts publicly and gotten the most publicity in the community from it. There ARE genuine, christ-loving people in the charismatic movement who have been blessed by the workings of the Holy Spirit. And it hurts to see that they are being denied and God’s work is being discredited because of the mistakes of others.
      This whole argument, however, is nothing but division in the body, which we are warned against over and over again. It is our command to flee from such arguments, as they do nothing but divide and allow for satan to capture our minds and trap us in a cycle of pride, gossip, and destruction. Remember that we all love the same God. We are all children of the same God. And our differences cannot possibly outweigh that truth. We are to be united by the same spirit. I suggest we all pray for reconciliation between the two parties and come out the other side of this stronger and better able to battle in the fight for truth. Remember that we are victorious at the end of it all! Let’s win the small battles too.

    • jonathan david

      Stephen,
      That is one major problem with MaCarthur’s approach. He takes some abuses and misrepresents them as fundamental to the Charismatic movement, in a broadbrush, derogatory way. How do you say STRAW MAN. He’s been doing it for years. I know, I used to buy his seemingly authoritative line, until I studied and asked Charismatics and Pentecostal leaders what they REALLY believed.

      If you really want to know, ask/read Jack Hayford. He has always been gracious and articulate to properly explain what the P/C movement basically believes (e.g., the Scriptures are FUNDAMENTAL to the P/C movement).

      • jonathan david

        …and I will add, EVERY sector of the church has its strength and weakness (I have been a part of many of these different “flavor” churches), even MaCarthurs camp. Let’s learn to appreciate the various emphasis of each sector, learn to live in peace and focus on winning the world for Christ.

        I guarantee you, the differences are not as far off as the perception. Let’s grow up and fight the REAL enemy. Goodness, gracious…

      • Well said Jonathan! I personally was under Jack for17 years as my pastor and he’s well balanced. His knowlegde of the word is outstanding… and I Iove how he lives a modest life. When he started getting royalties from his books he stopped taking a salary. He’s a very giving and gracious man.

      • SOME abuses? Wake up and open your eyes, man! The Charismatic movement is RIFE with abuses. If there is any genuineness to it at all, it is RARE! The majority of it is nothing but pure abuse. You can see it all over YouTube. People pushing drool out of their mouth and acting as though they are high, claiming the Spirit has taken hold of them. Sitting there faking a kind of hiccup and then attributing that to the Spirit (Patricia King).

    • There are abuses in all man structured organizations, denominations and movements..because they are made up of flawed men…that is why we are told to be led by the Holy Spirit and the scriptures..not just one or the other.

  19. Robert Sanders

    You can make the bible say whatever you want it to say, John MacArthur has accomplished this successfully by disregarding the experience that took place on the day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts 2:4.

    I have read a few of John MacArthur’s
    book and have even used them to teach my Bible classes. Unfortunately, he has missed it as it relates to the Infilling of the Holy Ghost. Speaking in tongues is the initial manifestation of the Holy Ghost but not the only manifestation (i.e. the fruit and gifts of the Spirit) MacArthur has altered the Word of God with this heretical teaching. However, he can dismiss the teaching of the Charismatic Movement, but one thing he has failed to do is take away the experience of millions of people that testify that when they were filled with the Holy Spirit they spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance. I am Apostolic in doctrine and my experience is Pentecostal.

    • The Charismatic Movement has disregarded this experience, too. Do you not read your Bible? The hearers said, “We hear them speak in OUR languages.” Greek, Latin, English, Spanish, German, Russian, French, etc. The Apostles spoke in these and the hearers heard in these. Your Bible also states that tongues are a sign for unbelieving Jews and that they are NOT for the edification of the church. They have no place in the church.
      Tongues is NOT the initial manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Provide chapter and verse to back your erroneous assertion of this, sir. You have none! Tongues is a spiritual gift, and every Christian DOES NOT have the same gifts given unto the. Both the passage in Acts and the passage in 1 Corinthians contradict and condemn your false assertion and erroneous interpretation. Your idea of tongues is nowhere found in Scripture. Scripture is not interpreted by so-called experiences, no matter how real they feel. That is emotionalism.

  20. William S. Sutherland

    If you had ever read any of the crude, vulgar, blasphemous stuff that comes out of the deranged mind of Driscoll, you would understand MacArthur not wanting this false prophet’s literature at his conference. Mark Driscoll has no fear of God and anyone who promotes his trash should be suspect such as the likes of John Piper. Piper has tolerated and defended Driscoll’s ungodly attitude, speech and behaviour, while MacArthur took him to task for his mocking of sin and potty mouth preaching. There is a great sermon by Laurence Justice on Driscoll at SermonAudio.com which I highly recommend. There is also on the internet an article by Cathy Mickels in which she furnishes various quotes by Driscoll which show him to be the godless charlatan that he is. Strange Fire indeed!!!

    • “There is a great sermon by Laurence Justice on Driscoll…” You mean that instead of the word of God, we have whole sermons dedicated to one individual preacher? What part of the gospel was that? Oh that’s right, it wasn’t. Preaching sermons on Driscoll saves no one, helps no one, comforts no one. How about preaching about Jesus? Sing about Jesus? Show them Jesus and maybe, just maybe, they will fall in love with Jesus so much that they will discern any false representation of Him. That would take having to exercise too much faith in the Holy Spirit to do his job correctly wouldn’t it?

  21. Kathy Stallings

    Our precious Jesus prayed in John 17:21 that we would be one that the world may believe and be convinced that the Father had sent Him. Our goal should be to win the lost and and love one another as we were commanded to do not argue over denominational issues. My goodness, this nonsense is playing right into the devil’s plans. Wake up!

    • No, Jesus was praying with regard to his disciples. Context. You cannot claim what applies to others. You can learn from it, but you cannot claim it as your own.

  22. “”…Look how these people wear their churches as a garment! For they take much pride in their own names, they are puffed up. See how they walk about, with their heads held high, speaking proudly, taking no time to stop and listen… THEY REFUSE TO HEAR!
    I tell you the truth, their faces are covered in shame! Their nakedness is uncovered, their rebellion is made plain! Their ears are full of their perverse doctrines, and their detestable traditions are always upon their lips! There is no light in them and darkness covers them… They are unable to see. …”"

    http://trumpetcallofgodonline.com/index.php5?title=Come_Out_From_Among_Them%21_Says_The_Lord

  23. I would love to see a guy like MacAurther to have encountered one of the old testament prophets living in caves, John the baptist dressed in odd clothing or all the “decieved “shouting out strange languages in the upper room. He would probably have denounced them one and all as heretics and lunatics.

    • Barbara Bonifield

      How strange that as my husband and I were reading our Bibles this morning, In Jeremiah,that is, I thought to myself how much like John MacArthur he sounded, and look what they did to him. I praise God for gifted teachers like John.

      • Even gifted teachers miss the mark sometimes…remember the teacher God gave His church is the Holy Spirit..He alone takes truth and reveals it to our spirit..He sorts out the errors of men. When we follow men as an alternative to following the voice of the Spirit we will be led astray at some point or another, even good men like Mark as well…they are imperfect vessels.

        I would say that MacAutur is spewing condemnation on millions of children of God and doing what Jesus warned the Pharasees not to do…not to call what the holy Spirit is doing the work of Satan..that is blasphemy..

        The gifts of the Holy Spirit were taught in depth by Paul in Corinthians and the evidence of those gifts are active in the church today…to call them works of the devil is to move onto dangerous ground..I pray God gives him a SAUL experience..

  24. Speaking the truth in love seems to be a lost art in many parts of the christian church today. to have a conference to denounce a large vibrant part of todays church which probably does more praying and bible reading and talking to people about Jesus than most Reformed and Mainline christians as heretical for whatever stated reason, seems to be a statement from someone who wants to stir up controversy rather than someone who wishes to promote oneness in the body of Christ.

  25. Michel Tietie

    Interesting….two pastors, more than likely neither having any real degree for what they do, are biting at each others heels over something that should be so painfully obvious to everyone. Two grown men bickering about their view on what the Bible teaches…and yet, this book is still infallible? I find that hard to believe and this is yet another example of the timely effect on human perception regarding this document. No surprise here really. Pastors are some of the most self righteous men/women I’ve met; this isn’t likely to change any time soon.

  26. I never met a credible charismatic or pentecostal, because the focus is on lying signs and wonders, new winds of doctrine, and error piled on top of more error.

  27. So sad! We will be spending eternity together. Lets try to get to know each other now. I heard this quote, ” If you are still dealing with fear, then your love has not been perfected.” ” Perfect love casts out all fear.” Paul the Apostle.

  28. However gifted a teacher/shepherd/pastor/leader may be we deceive ourselves to put full trust and faith in him or her; there is no substitute for ones own faith walk with the Lord including personal prayer and delving into the Word which was given for our growth and enrichment. We can get caught up in devotion to Pastor W or to Brother Y but the Lord Jesus still deserves our full attention..

    kjb

  29. My Open Letter to Mark Driscoll
    Posted on October 21, 2013 by Darren Wiebe
    Pastor Mark,

    There has already been a lot of ink spilled out over the last few days regarding your visit to the Strange Fire Conference. Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and the Blogosphere has had more people weigh in on what they believe happened than is necessary (The best I’ve read is this one).There’s been so much speculation, accusation and presumption that it’s hard to know what the truth is anymore. So why in the world would I be adding myself into the mixture? Let’s just say, you’ve given me a platform that I never wanted, a unique, first hand perspective. You see those two guys you’re talking to? The one on the left side there, wearing the striped shirt? The ridiculously handsome one? Yeah, that’s me. (And just for clarity, I do not represent Grace Community Church or The Master’s Seminary, or am deceived enough to think I’m ridiculously handsome).

    I’ve always been aware that you are an incredibly influential leader within the Christian community. Your books make bestsellers lists and your conferences are sellouts. I guess I’ve never realized how much of an impact you had until Friday morning, when we met. In under a minute from the time you posted this:

    My phone received texts and alerted me to facebook notices and twitter mentions from Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, California, Canada and Seattle. All within the first minute! Some of those people I haven’t heard from in over 10 years. For the next two hours, my phone remained plugged into a charger because the battery couldn’t handle the amount of activity your one picture exposed it to. Three days later, phone calls and notifications continue to pour in, literally from all over the world. We truly live in a technologically-connected age. But with great power, comes great responsibility.

    Mr. Driscoll, I’m not here to sling mud. That’s just not me, and honestly, I know you’ll probably never see this letter. But as one who is himself preparing for ministry and the pastorate, the example that you have displayed to me and others in your brief time at the Strange Fire Conference, and also in the days following, has not been the gracious, loving example that I believe should characterize a man of God. I feel like I need you need to stand up and act like a man.

    Just to briefly recap, I could hardly believe it when I saw you announced via twitter:

    The first thing that came to my mind when I read this was… PR stunt. I don’t know, and I’m not about to assume I know what you were thinking, but the time you sent that was brilliant. 9:01 AM – the opening morning session with Conrad Mbewe was just starting. He was beginning a brilliant message and your arrival on campus would be just as the session let out. Not a lot of time for people to prepare. What better way to shock the attendees and staff by being there right when they were not expecting you. If you didn’t think it would be a shock and create a scene, than I’m giving you much more credit than you deserve.

    Instead, by your own admission, you were met graciously by the Grace Community Church staff and security. You told the Christian Post that you thought it was “Gracious that they let me on campus at all.” Adding that, “they don’t owe me anything and I didn’t go through an official process. I wasn’t planning on it. I just happened to be in town.” Pastor Mark, this statement tells me two things:

    You were looking to pick a fight. By your own words you claim that you did not expect to have a good meeting when you arrived on campus. You came to cause a scene and maybe gain some status as a martyr in the promotion of your upcoming book, in which you ironically call for unity within the church and a ceasefire on what you’ve labeled as “tribalism.” Honestly, if it had gone according to how you envisioned and anticipated your arrival, it would have been a perfect illustration. I have to wonder though, were you were seeking to start a civil war for promotional reasons?
    You schemed. Be honest Pastor Mark, you did not happen to be in town. You were in Long Beach… A trip of over 40 miles on one of America’s most congested freeways. You did not just happen to be in the neighborhood with a reporter and photographer. The only time I see scheming in the scriptures, it does not have positive connotations, and those it associates it with, are not ones with which we want to be aligning ourselves. But again, this is my interpretation of what was going on. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Maybe you always have a reporter and photographer with you.
    So many people have asked me about the few minutes that we talked. I tell them about how nice you were…very cordial and gracious. It was a pleasant exchange about church planting, ministry and the last time you were in my homeland of Canada. While you were here, it was rather nice. There’s plenty that we do not agree upon, but that does not mean we have to throw away civility. When it was time for you to leave, I watched some of the staff of Grace Community Church walk back with you to your car, even offering to carry the box of books you brought, to which you returned to them insisting they were a gift. And I heard friendly conversation and even joking banter between you and the head of security.

    Honestly, I and many others were impressed by how well you conducted yourself on campus, even though it seemed like you were pulling a Kanye West inspired move. That is why I was so shocked, when you drove off campus and immediately sent out this tweet:

    All of us who were present were rather horrified at the blatant lie you sent to your 428,247 twitter followers, 39,556 Instagram and 218,335 Facebook friends.

    King David messed up. 2 Samuel 11 details his great sin with Bathsheba. For a year, David lets the adultery and murder and lies fester in his heart and sear his conscience. He knows he’s guilty, yet he ignores his fault and hides it. Pastor Mark, don’t be guilty of hiding your sin and ignoring it. This past Sunday I saw a little girl take some rocks from a plant bed even after her mother told her to put them back. But instead, she put them in the seat of her stroller and then used a blanket to cover the rocks up, hoping no one would see them. I noticed that immediately when you were called out and confronted, you became very active on your social media sites, in turn, burying what you had said far below the news feeds. You have yet to come clean.

    I still am shocked at seeing my picture float around Facebook and the various Christian news outlets. I never realized my 15 minutes of fame would come with so much baggage attached. In all honesty, I walk away unscathed. I just have to put up with getting teased by friends and family over the fact that they’re seeing me everywhere online. However, I was not the brunt of a lie and I do hurt for my dear friend who you falsely accused in a public arena and presented in a way that is far from accurate. I cannot understand how you feel justified in presenting some who was gracious to you, who offered to help you carry things, who treated you like a gentleman…as a villain. You threw this man under a bus as he was carrying your things.

    Thankfully, his upright character is so well-known to those at Grace Community Church that most people were surprised to see him able to be portrayed as such. This is a real man, one who acts like a man. He’s strong, noble and does his job as head of security with excellence. I have also watched him on numerous occasions, share the gospel passionately with those he is having to contain and discipline. I’ve seen him pleading with those he is working with, inviting them to come to church with him. More concerned for their souls, than for the harm they may inflict on the campus. Please, you have an opportunity to clear his name.

    Pastor Mark, you are a man who claims to speak as a man of God, and as a pastor-in-training, I look for examples to follow. When a leader behaves like a child and buries his sin, the example that you set is far from what I see as godly and certainly not one that I want to emulate. Many have already alluded to the irony of the conference you were speaking being called “Act Like Men,” and questioned the authority you have to speak on such a subject, when you remind us of a boy in High School pulling a prank with little discretion and grave consequences

    I wish I could come up with a great illustration, like Nathan did for David (2 Samuel 12:1-15), but I can’t. But I do call you to make things right. I call you to examine the motivation for your actions and also apologize to those you need to apologize to. David’s response in Psalm 51 is a true call to repentance. You’ve not only sinned against man, but you’ve sinned against a Holy God. You are a man with lots of influence and you have a tremendous opportunity right now Pastor Mark, to confess that you were wrong. That you made a mistake and to ask for forgiveness. I can assure you, forgiveness can and will be granted.

    Sincerely,

    Darren Wiebe

  30. I don’t have any problem with MacArthur hosting a conference on a topic that is so confusing to many, if not most, Christians. In fact, I think that hearing the arguments from Scripture is a healthy thing for God’s people to evaluate what the Word says and to honestly seek to be accountable to God.
    It seems that those opposed to it may be opposed because they have not done a good job of studying the Scriptures, or possibly their hermeneutic will be challenged.
    I know people in both camps and both have their extremes. Some Charismatics that I know use and study the Bible sparingly. Others have somewhat mystical experiences and interpretations from their time with God. Still others are careful with both interpretation of the Word an their Charismata.
    Non Charismatics also have their issues. Many rarely open up the Word and seek to grow in Christ. Their conservatism has become a religion in and of itself. Others, like their Charismatic counterparts, have a very weak hermeneutic and settle for a mystical interaction with the Word. Still others are serious and careful with their interpretation of the Word and their Cessationism.
    What is refreshing to me, however, is the recent revival of Gospel-Centrality. That what is more important is our clarity around the Gospel. But then the question is, What is the Gospel that you believe?
    The Church will always and continually have to revisit and speak to these issues to stay focused, remain orthodox and to faithfully serve God in accordance to His Word.

  31. As an African Anglican Priest said “Doesn’t your Bible have the book of Acts”? He isn’t part of the Pentecostal church, he is part of the historic Anglican Church. But he knows what empowers his ministry as it should ours from the mom to the pastor/priest.

  32. Gary J. Hammond M.Div

    My evangelical brethern love the Lord and they say they believe the Bible as God’s word. However, I have some observations over the last thirty five years of walking fully recommiitted to the Lord and twenty five years of preaching.

    The most important observation is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit that Jesus commanded us to wait until we be enduded with power from on high before we even begin preaching Christ has been avoided like unsaved Israel avoided talking to the Samaritians. If we are Biblical exegetes at all then we must accept all the Holy Spirit accounts in the Book of Acts for what they teach us. Spirit Baptisn is without doubt a post salvation event in every Christian’s life recorded in every Spirit Baptism account in the book of Acts.
    This is our model for all Christians in the last nineteen centuries. God is not going to change his system nor his word because someone doesn’t like it.

    I have observed many evangelicals preaches who do not want to put the time and effort into obeying the requirements in Acts or the Lord’s requirements preceding receiveing the Holy Spirit Baptism in the Gospel of John 14:14-16, 23-26. Many of my Christian breathern preachers are lile Apollos who was an eloquent man mighty in the scriptures (O.T. in his case) but knowing only the baptism of John ( water baptism). Acts 18:25. The next chapter tells of Paul laying hands on the believers in Ephesus to receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit after their salvation.

    Another observation is that many are side tracked by the results of receiving the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. It’s like the anology of a customer in a retail store who is looking for an excuse to give the salesman for not immediately buying the product they know they should have in their house.
    Remember Jesus himself is the Baptizer with the Holy Spiiit not any churchman. The Lord knows what his is doing and there is no reason to fear any results of praising God in the Spirit..

    Finally, my last big observation is my evangelical brethern have cut themselves off from having the Divine power that the Lord wants each preacher to have. Does not Luke 24:49 and Acts 1:8 tell us the Lord’s will on this subject? So, why do so many resist the Holy Spirit as Jesus defined the Baptism? Is it because the human flesh is always full of rebellion?

    Let not the extremes of the Charismatic groups or the unlearnedness of some Pentecoastals close the eyes of others who desire what God’s word says he desires us to have for his Divine purposes. ( I can address the extremes and false doctrins of the Charismatic gorups another day.)

    Lastly, let not evangelical unlearnedness or human pride of avoiding sound Bibliical exegesis of the Holy Spirit inspired texts on the subject of the supernatural for the church be a stumbling block for any of us. I believe, the path to obtain the Baptism with the Holy Spirit and actually receiving this baptism is the only way the total church will ever be revived.

    My current series of messages on “The New Covenant- Spirit Baptsim” can heard over my radio broadcast called “The Christian Missionary Evangelism” heard over wwva 1170am Wheeling, West Virginia on Sunday Evenings at 10:30 Pm as long as the funds hold out to purchase radio time. Otherwise, I could send you a copy as an email attachment when someone sends an email requesting copies.
    Rev. G. J. Hammond Dip., B. A., M.Div
    P.O. Box 22211
    Bethlehem, Penn. 18002
    610-865-1180 minisry phone line

  33. I can understand people like John Macarthur disagreeing with the theology of others, but it is a very serious sin to stand up and attribute all charismatic phenomena to Satan. I tremble to think of the judgment that awaits Macarthur if he does not moderate or repent!

  34. If you want to gain a better understanding of MacArthur’s position, you should take a look at the article published Oct. 1 in Charisma magazine about a church in North Carolina that has created a Holocaust Museum. The name of the church is Word of Faith Fellowship Church (WOFF) and it has been widely identified as a cult. It was recently the subject of an FBI probe but yet the article, entitled “The Art of Remembering,” casts the many allegations against this church as persecution. It truly is a farce.

    http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/11/17/3673039/word-of-faith-fellowship-sees.html#.UmkaIRafc2k

  35. “One of our conference directors took that gift and brought them up to the offices. If you hear from him and he wants them back, we can send those back if he wants them. ”

    Guess these folks don’t know the meaning of the word ‘confiscated’…that action defines it..

  36. I guess Mr. MacArthur will garner millions of dollars from sales of his dvd’s which many so-called reformed churches and Christians will purchase.

  37. Driscoll is providing a one sided posturing with his presence at the Strange Fire Conference and publicized letter to MacArthur. When has MacArthur entered the debate? You can say, he entered the debate by having the conference, however, there are numerous Christian conferences that do not teach the same things and there isn’t as much controversy. If Charismatics are confident in their position, why be offended there is a different view of what they believe scripture teaches. This disagreement has been going on for quite a long time.

    If Driscoll was wise, he should have known his presence would be controversial. Furthermore, if Driscoll wanted MacArthur to attend his conference why didn’t Driscoll send the letter privately and not publicly? This would have shown maturity and wisdom on Driscoll’s part.

    Either way, Driscoll publicly put’s MacArthur in a position: if he declines or doesn’t respond, MacArthur is at a disadvantage; if he goes it can only serve Driscoll’s stance from a publicity standpoint.

    My guess is MacArthur will not address or attend, but stay the course of his biblical view whether people agree or not.

    Driscoll will go on with his view presenting himself as the solution to the divided church?

    My view is the church will become unified when persecution comes. This is biblical and historical.

    Personally I believe the underlying problem with the American church is idolatry, materialism, and self promotion under the disguise of evangelicals.

  38. My response to John Macarthur:

    While there are people operating in counterfeit gifts under witchcraft power –

    The Gifts and Operation of the Holy Spirit “The Comforter” have not ceased. The Full Gospel message of the Lord Jesus Christ has always been Salvation, Healing and Deliverance.

    Just as the 5 fold offices in church government exist so do the gifts and operation of the Holy Spirit exist in 2013.

    Unfortunately most churches have forsaken Deliverance “The Children’s Bread” and this has created a legacy of christians being bound and tied up by demons with little hope of freedom for those that resist deliverance and leaves them with an unbalanced gospel and demonization from many unclean spirits to include deception and religious spirits along with antichrist and error.

    There are two sins that there is no fogiveness for: Taking the Mark of the Beast, and Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

    To mock those that move in the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to attribute deliverance ministry to casting out demons by the Power of beelzebub is text book blasphemy

  39. Writing and speaking about our understanding on Biblical matters is our right and privilege from God. We must engage in such! However, to start aggressively invading another Churches property and territory when they are having services and conferences is a action not sanctioned by our Lord and His word, but rather, an act of arrogance and selfish prideful activities. For Mark Driscoll to take his books and try and hand them out to attendee’s at the Conference is just not prudent and certainly reflects a person who is at a minimum out of line in Christian thought and action. No Pastor shows himself to be a humble servant of Christ doing such outlandish and out of order actions. I was and am saddened by his actions and pray he will repent of such sinful actions which reflect attitudes just not consistent with Christ or any Apostles teachings! If he wishes, he can write, speak or discuss from his own pulpit or organizational places all he wishes, but to physically go into or on other properities of Churches and their meetings to pass out literature is absolutely wrong when it comes to those of “like faith and practice” and even if it were a “sect’ you would still honor their privacy rights and property! He seems to have lost all sense of reason. I ask him to repent and forsake such belligerent actions which reflect to me a man who is out of line with Christian deportment! Certainly he doesn’t represent Christ in this action and any normal Christian ministers conduct!

  40. Marks comment about the two “tribes” so-called views of the Holy Spirit is absolutely not correct and is misinformation from ignorance or perhaps just plain purposeful lying! Only he knows his heart! But I can say it is fallacious and absolutely wrong. In fact, we Reformed folks know that the Holy Spirit produces the fruit of the Spirit and all He emphasized about what the Charismatics supposedly stood for (which I don’t think they really do from what I have seen, heard and observed)! His statement on what John MacArthur and the rest of us believe on the Holy Spirit about a nail and a hammer etc., is absolutely incorrect and disrespectful to the highest degree. I am insulted by this man who calls himself a preacher of Christ and a so-called Reformed guy which he doesn’t appear to really be. I have found him to be divisive to the highest degree on these issues. He is also a man who opens his pulpit to works oriented Armenians such as
    Greg Laurie, Craig Groeschel and even Rick Warren, all who do not endorse or believe in the Reformed faith at all. Their words and message reflect that clearly. Yet, he would never open up his pulpit to John MacArthur or R.C.Sproul for instance. Not that they would like to go there perhaps, but is he a Reformed guy or not? Seemingly he is coming down stronger on the side of Charismatic heresies rather than solid in his position with the historical Reformed folks such as Calvin, Luther, Augustine, Pink, Sproul, MacArthur, etc.! The Church fathers of the past settled these issues on the Holy Spirit and the Gifts from history past, many years before he was born and came to a conclusion about the heresies surrounding the Holy Spirit and the Gifts. So, take off the Reformed tag, Mr. Driscoll, if you are not in the camp! Be honest! It is time to take sides on this issue rather than call for dialog when you only want folks to be in the camp of Charismatics, a sect far removed from historic Reformed theology and Christianity! Also, it is time to quit misrepresenting the beliefs of MacArthur and others on the Holy Spirit. Your statement was not true at all. These are dangerous times and someone needs to stand against those who are enemies of the Cross of Christ. Charles Spurgeon stated the Doctrines of Grace is the Gospel and I agree with him 100%! Charismatics do not stand with us on the Gospel neither do Armenians. They add to it or take away from it and Paul called such ones accursed! We can’t have two Gospels and that is really what we are seeing today! Two approaches to the Gospel and only ONE is right! The message by both have common statements on many aspects of the Gospel, but then it falls apart and works is added by one group, along with many other corruptions of the entire Gospel message. It is not enough to say the Gospel expecting all of those who use it mean the same thing for they don’t! Example: the blood of Christ was either shed in vain or it was shed purposefully for certain people! The people who receive the Gospel message are those who God raises from the dead or they are people who act first and get God to react to their actions – both of these cannot be true to the Gospel message! It is time to quit compromising on these issues. One is truth and the other error. Both cannot be correct and this is the integral and most important part of Christianity – the Gospel of God’s sovereign grace. The Church and Salvation of individuals rise or fall on this correct message. There is no church or person saved if the doctrines of pure grace are not believed and understood!

  41. Unfortunately most churches have forsaken Deliverance “The Children’s Bread” and this has created a legacy of christians being bound and tied up by demons with little hope of freedom for those that resist deliverance and leaves them with an unbalanced gospel and demonization from many unclean spirits to include deception and religious spirits along with antichrist and error.

    There are two sins that there is no fogiveness for: Taking the Mark of the Beast, and Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.

  42. Who is God to among you to classify? Who has a right to classify? I am NOT a pentecostal (but I speak in tongues of fire as the Holy Ghost gives utterance), I am not a ‘MacAuthur-nist’ and I will never be one, I not a charismatic (but I have gifts of the Holy Spirit working in and through me given to me by the Holy Spirit), I am not an evangelical or an ana-baptist, nor a puritan, or a Cessationist, nor Baptist. I will never be a Trinitarian, or Unitarian, or any group that classifies believers. I don’t believe in groups of “Christianity”. I have never believed in groups OF CLASSIFICATIONS MADE BY “movements” and people or “theologians”. That is why I wrote a book GOD IS GOING TO MARRY YOU (Click this link:http://www.amazon.com/God-Is-G….

    I wrote it TO BRING USA AND BELIEVERS WORLDWIDE BACK TO THE POINT OF SEEING THAT YOU ARE ESPOUSED (ENGAGED) TO BE THE BRIDE OF CHRIST. Christ did not die for you to be espoused to any ‘movement’. PAUL a true apostle strongly rebuked the followers of movements by saying: “Some of you are saying, “I am a follower of Paul.” Others are saying, “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Peter,” or “I follow only Christ. Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,so no one can say that you were baptized in my name.(1 Corinthians 1:12-15). If your apostle preaches classification, he is not a true apostle like Paul the apostle. The bible is not for “movements”. MOVEMENTS BAPTIZE PEOPLE IN THIER NAMES, not the name of Jesus Christ (your ONLY Saviour). Jesus Christ is the ONLY TRUE SAVIOUR you must believe in everyday of YOUR life. THAT IS WHERE THE PROBLEM IS with movements- they take people away from JESUS CHRIST. Movements give you names of their ‘false beliefs’, and chains you to them as a slave. Movements always disagrees with the bible, to make their own doctrines and teachings. I am not a Marian, or Orthodox, or Anglicanism, I will never be a Calvinism, or Presbyterianism. I dont belong to groups of any movement. I am not a Methodist, I will never a Continental, or Jewish Christian, I wont join all these groups that fight over “categorization”. I am not an Adventist, I will never be a Universalism or Swedenborgianism. All these groups never shed their blood on the Cross. I am not a Eucharist, of a Sacramentist, I will never be a Liturgicalist, or Kosovo Protestant. All these are names which people use to ‘de-classify the classified and classed’. IT IS A CONFUSION of “war-nism”. A true believer does not ‘fight over’ movements.

    APOSTLE PAUL asked a very serious question to you (a believer): “Is Christ divided?”. LET ME ASK YOU A BIG QUESTION: “why are so many churches fighting and diving each other over movements and categorization?” Paul the man of God asked: “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? THE ANSWER IS NO. Any movement which divides the body of Christ should re-consider why it was formed. THE BIBLE SAYS: “until we ALL reach UNITY in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ(Ephesians 4:13). DOCTRINE ought not to “divide the body/churches”.

    That is why a loved apostle of Jesus Christ named apostle JOHN said: “If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home or give any kind of encouragement”(2 John 1:10). JESUS CHRIST IS OUR DOCTRINE. Stop fighting over names and groupings and clubs and fraternity or socialism doctrines. GOD never send movements to shed the blood on the CROSS. ONLY JESUS shed the blood. ONLY JESUS. That is why the apostle John says: “If anyone comes to your meeting and does not teach the truth about Christ, don’t invite that person into your home”.

    GOD did NOT ask “his disciples” to be classified by sinners or ‘fellow believers’. I don’t belong to any “movement”. That is why believers hate and fight each other, they “fight over movements”. GOD DID NOT SEND MOVEMENTS TO DIE FOR SINNERS OR PEOPLE. Jesus CHRIST(the only TRUE GOD as per 1John 5:20b) is the only one we are to be unified in and by. JESUS CHRIST IS THE ONLY ONE WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT. Not movements and classifications. I wont join the pentecostals, holiness, charismatic, pentecostals, catholics, puritans, trinitarian and all the groups or any group in the world that says it has “shed the blood on the cross”. GROUPINGS HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH GOD’S WILL. It is our own “way” of segregating against other believers. AND I WONT STAND FOR ANY MOVEMENT WHATSOEVER.

    WRITE THIS DOWN AND REMEMBER IT AS LONG AS YOU ARE ALIVE: “we are the body of Christ”(1 Corinthians 12:27 ). The “bride” of JESUS CHRIST. We are not the body of any movement or ‘class’ or ‘grouping’. We are espoused [ENGAGED] to “Christ”(2 Corinthians 11:2). MORE THAN 100 MOVEMENTS HAVE SEPARATED THE BODY OF CHRIST.

    • Thank you for explaining so simple and fair.

      Some people learn theology thinking that they know everything than other people.

      Praise God for this explanation.
      Thank you the Holy Spirit who reveal this revelation.
      Out of this millions blogs, I never here explanation so simple as this one.
      May Almighty God increases your knowledge and wisdom exceedly and abundantly.
      Amen!

  43. The charismatic movement has been around for many, many centuries, especially among Catholic orders and other false teachers. As we see ecumenicism, false doctrine, a return to Rome in this land, and other grave and damning doctrines sweep this land, no wonder more are turning away from Dr. MacArthur to teachers having itching ears. The falling away, the teachers with itching ears, and the Roman beast were all foretold. We shouldn’t be surprised. Dr. MacArthur is 74 and will in a few years be rewarded by the Savior for his amazing service on earth when he leaves this world to enter heaven. I have serious doubts that most on this thread will ever have to see him again. You will soon have his voice silenced, and since there are few men left with his courage, integrity, and knowledge of Scripture, you can revel in the teachings of the false christ and false prophet who do signs and wonders and tickle your ears with their teaching as you will be especially susceptible to their leadership, since you are already embracing false grace, false worship music, false visions and prophets, false doctrinal teaching, and false gospels. I remember a people who thought that Jeremiah and Isaiah were too scathing, negative, divisive, and troublesome in their messages, and they wanted them silenced. They were silenced, just in time for GOD’s wrath to pour down in full. Americans have an economic collapse ahead of them and perhaps fascism or worse. They have had the Gospel and the Truth preached for centuries in great abundance. For the most part, they have made their choice to create their own version of the Bible, grace, the Gospel, and Truth. They’ll pay for their choices, and there will be no redemption when the time of judgment knocks upon their door. I believe most of the world will have little pity upon Americans who have for years embraced all types of evil and used GOD’s name to justify it all. GOD is full of grace when He brings Divine judgment upon rebellious, stiff-necked people. That’s not the type of grace you preach, but it’s the kind the prophets and apostles, many of whom were martyred, preached. And if they were alive today, I’m sure your words would be scathing toward them as they have been toward a faithful man like Dr. MacArthur. May GOD show you mercy before it’s too late in your land. The best news I could receive is that Americans have repented, particularly the church-going variety, but alas I fear they are too reprobate.

  44. I enjoy and can folow both Mark Driscoll and John Mc– and I find the distaste JM has is toward the word/faith/Pentecostals who are errant in many ways.

    That is not MD– Mark’s teaching on the Holy Spirit is clear and concise– just because he hasn’t bottled up the HS by being a cessationalist he gets the stink-eye from the more conservative of the Reformed faith.

    MD speaks well of Calvin and Spurgeon and other leaders of the Reformation– and I believe there is great misunderstanding on some people’s part as to MD’s teaching on the third person of the Trinity.

  45. Do replace the word Dignity with the word Sodom to read “Sodom USA”, for it is its Biblical name to the Prophecy “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt”, Sodom to the land of its modern emission, in the beliefs of Ancient Egypt , which incidentally killed Jesus.

  46. So many reasons for disagreement. So what truly is a CORE issue that we must agree on to bind us together. I believe there is much that we fight over, as Christians, that are NON CORE Christian issues. Let every Christian be convinced in his own mind what is the truth. Though we want to right every wrong , this is the task of The Holy Spirit. We are only but messengers! Let us strive to live at peace with each other and love each other as God Loves us. If one man is wrong and abuses, then let him be accursed! But, if a man serves and does so in humility, let him rejoice! The ones who abuse the gifts will know the Truth when they are standing in front of God on judgement day! Let us live together in harmony and stop this boastful bickering that only separates us from one another.

  47. Joseph Goudreau

    We have seen Augustine constrained to allow the principle that signs or miracles alleged in the interests of false doctrines are self-condemned; that no miracle can be accepted against the truth, but is at once to be set aside if presented in the interests of error. . The only security lies in having ourselves the seal of God—that gift of the Holy Ghost by which we may detect the lying wonders of Satan. (From Bb Warfield’s counterfeit miracles) if you want to underarms sign gifts, you need to understand the doctrine of revelation. When God reveals himself to mankind he confirms that revelation by signs such as in the case of Moses, when the revelation of Christ came it was confirmed by signs. The apostles laid that foundation upon the corner stone which confirmed with signs. This will happen again with the comming of the two witnesses, God will confirm those witnesses by signs. God can and does do miracles, but “sign gifts” are only used at times of revelation when God himself speaks to mankind. Cessationism is correct, it’s biblical. Cessationism is linked to the doctrine of revelation… Jesus said many will come doing false signs and lying wonders! It’s obvious what’s going on here.

  48. lisa longoria

    I want to say one more thing and I really hope this helps someone.The Lord has been revealing to me that His gifts are indeed powerful.His Word says they come with out repentance. He has been letting me know that the fruit of His spririt is even more powerful than His gifts. Love is the most important, among other things it does not demand its own way.

  49. Steve MacLeod

    I was sad to see this happen as I think the Lord would be. It is far better not to preach a strange gospel either party. I said Driscol and MacCarther. In Johns epistle chapter 4 it says that we should test the spirits. The Holy Spirit will take what Jessus has been given and make it known unto you. He will confess the Jesus Christ has come. READ the scriptures brothers and sisters. By the way most of the authorship on a human level did not speak against the gifts of the Spirit and they dealt with perhaps what John MacCarther is warning against. Yet do not throw out everything but test it. Is he doing this ?

  50. Lynetta Rival

    I believe that The Strange Fire conference needs to return the books to Mark Driscoll because their are his property. If a person doesn’t like what someone is doing, it’s important to have the person remove his merchandise but not to confiscate all the books just because you disagree with the book.

  51. Heretics can also say “jesus is come.” Religious people do it every Sunday, but they are no more saved than hoppytoads. The Mormons also say jesus is lord. Yes, THEIR jesus is lord, but their jesus is not the Jesus of the Scriptures. So fruit must be tested in the light of Scripture and that means testing “doctrinal fruit” as well. Most of these so-called charismatics have worse problems doctrinally and MacArthur should spend his time on more important matters. I am more concerned about the charismatics who embrace the pagan Greek philosophy of free-will. But Scripture teaches the opposite; No man can come to the Father but through the Messiah. There is NONE who seek for God. I would spend my time educating them on these heresies first. Then I would talk about gifts.

  52. I would suggest that if you familiarize yourself with who John MacArthur really is and listed to his many, many years of teaching/preaching on his website, you will see that he HAS devoted his whole life to teaching the whole of scripture – not just regarding the dangers of the charismatic movement. I am thrilled that he has so carefully studied this issue and is standing up (with many others) to defend the scriptures and warns those who’ve been seduced by “another gospel”.

  53. Hola Moshe,

    Given that free-will is absolutely and obviously a Pagan Greek thought, with zero foundation in Scripture, and Calvinism (whose founder while a monk wrote an extensive work on Greek fatalism) has as absolutely and as obviously NO foundation in Pagan Greek thought, I am sure that Charismatics would embrace debating you on their “error” of free-will, before discussing their Charismatic “error”. It is rare to find those individuals gifted with a spirit of fairness discuss issues in which their error is so blatant. Actually, this unity and fair mindedness is what is so amazing about modern “Christianity” and its gazillion forms, each founded on obvious truth.

    Someday we might realize somebody must be wrong, and we are somebody, too. Can not knowing, can not being “certain” be one day valued?

  54. Free Will Michael

    Are you actually claiming that everyone’s path was chosen for them? Really? You are so misinterpreting that verse. That verse speaks of works. It is clarification that no man may enter the kingdom through his own good works but only through believing in our crucified savior…Jesus Christ! To claim that our God has already chosen who is going to heaven and who is going to hell is to basically say that we are actors in a play. A game that God is playing at his leisure. That we are all puppets being controlled by him. That is ludicrous. Eve CHOSE to eat of the fruit and Adam CHOSE to accept it from her and eat of it also. That was their choice…because they had FREEWILL! Also, it doesn’t make much sense that he would send his son to suffer on the cross for for people who’s path to heaven was already planned for them. He suffered and died for those who CHOOSE (of their “FREEWILL”) to believe in him. Predestination may be the cause of more people damned to hell than any other misinterpretation of the Bible that has ever occurred!

  55. Freedom of God and His will, are infinitely and forever greater than the so called free will of man. God kills the living and raises the dead. He hardens hearts and turns stones into children of Abraham. He is able infinitely beyond the scope any creature, human or angel. This is why I pray. Why do free-willers pray? Because they see God as a mere helpful friend to call when their carnal strength becomes uncertain. Sign-seeking and free-willing go hand in hand, when you build your faith and confession on sinking sand.

  56. I’ve learned a lot about the Bible by listening to John Macarthur. However, I have a tough time listening to him because he sounds arrogant. He comes off as “My sanctification is complete, now get your act together.” Only God knows his heart, but it’s difficult for me to listen to him for this reason.

  1. […] Chest-thumping reached an all-time high when hyper-macho Neo-Reformed celebrity pastor Mark Driscoll showed up to “give away” free copies of his pro-charismatic book without permission. This ended with a rather nasty showdown between conference organizers and Driscoll, analyses of which can be found here and here. […]

  2. […] Chest-thumping reached an all-time high when hyper-macho Neo-Reformed celebrity pastor Mark Driscoll showed up to “give away” free copies of his pro-charismatic book without permission. This ended with a rather nasty showdown between conference organizers and Driscoll, analyses of which can be found here and here. […]

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