(RNS) Evangelist Franklin Graham is praising Russian President Vladimir Putin for his aggressive crackdown on homosexuality, saying his record on protecting children from gay “propaganda” is better than President Obama’s “shameful” embrace of gay rights.

Evangelist Billy Graham (r), with son Franklin Graham, at a crusade in New York on Sunday (June 26). Photo by Michael Falco

Evangelist Billy Graham, right, with son Franklin Graham, at a crusade in New York in 2005. Photo by Michael Falco


This image is available for Web and print publication. For questions, contact Sally Morrow.

Graham, who now heads the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association started by his famous father, praises Putin in the March issue of the group’s Decision magazine for signing a bill that imposes fines for adults who promote “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors.”

The Russian law came under heavy criticism from gay rights activists, and from Obama, ahead of the Winter Olympics in Sochi, Russia. In response, Obama included openly gay athletes as part of the official U.S. delegation to Sochi.

“In my opinion, Putin is right on these issues,” Graham writes. “Obviously, he may be wrong about many things, but he has taken a stand to protect his nation’s children from the damaging effects of any gay and lesbian agenda.”

“Our president and his attorney general have turned their backs on God and His standards, and many in the Congress are following the administration’s lead. This is shameful.”

With the caveat that “I am not endorsing President Putin,” Graham nonetheless praised Russia’s get-tough approach toward gay rights.

“Isn’t it sad, though, that America’s own morality has fallen so far that on this issue — protecting children from any homosexual agenda or propaganda — Russia’s standard is higher than our own?”

Graham also implicitly seems to side with Putin’s ally, embattled Syrian President Bashar Assad, in the ongoing civil war that has claimed more than 140,000 lives. Syria’s small Christian population has largely sided with the Assad regime throughout the three-year conflict.

“Syria, for all its problems, at least has a constitution that guarantees equal protection of citizens,” Graham writes. “Around the world, we have seen that this is essential where Christians are a minority and are not protected. … Christians in Syria know that if the radicals overthrow Assad, there will be widespread persecution and wholesale slaughter of Christians.”

Graham’s father was a virulent anti-Communist in his early years; in 1949 he called communism “a religion that is inspired, directed, and motivated by the Devil himself who has declared war against Almighty God.” But as he took his message around the world, he softened his rhetoric on a host of issues, including politics and hot-button fronts in the culture wars.

“If I had it to do over again, I would avoid any semblance of involvement in partisan politics,” the elder Graham, now 95, wrote in his 1997 autobiography, “Just As I Am.”

Billy Graham

Billy Graham toured the Moscow Synagogue during his 12-day visit to the Soviet Union on Sept. 15, 1984. RNS file photo


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For years, Billy Graham sought to take his gospel behind the Iron Curtain, ultimately preaching to huge crowds in Moscow in 1982. At the time, Putin was a young agent in the KGB. “In fact, he was in charge of monitoring foreigners in Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) when my father preached there in 1984,” the younger Graham wrote. “If he was eavesdropping on our meeting, which I hope he was, he heard the Gospel!”

Since Franklin Graham took over in 2001, he has steered the Graham franchise in a more political direction by openly questioning President Obama’s faith, endorsing a North Carolina measure that banned gay marriage, calling Islam an “evil and wicked religion” and implicitly endorsing Mitt Romney’s 2012 White House bid.

Michael Hamilton, who has studied the Graham legacy as a historian at Seattle Pacific University, said both father and son have been known to wade into controversy, but Franklin Graham responds differently.

“When the firestorm would hit, Billy Graham would always backtrack or walk back his comments in some way,” Hamilton said. “But when the firestorm hits Franklin, he doesn’t seem to really care.”

Hamilton also questioned why Franklin Graham — who has received wide praise for his relief work through his organization Samaritan’s Purse — didn’t approach Syria through the lens of “its enormous humanitarian crisis.”

A spokeswoman for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association said Friday (March 14) that Franklin Graham was traveling and unavailable for comment. A statement from BGEA noted his article went to press before the current crisis in Ukraine that’s pitted Putin and Russia against the West.

“Franklin Graham consistently encourages Christians to be informed and take a stand for biblical values and biblical truth,” the statement said. “The Putin cover article was a way to provoke engagement of readers on this important issue and encourage further thought, prayer, and action.”

But Marianne Duddy-Burke, who heads the gay Catholic group DignityUSA and is a member of the National Religious Leadership Roundtable of gay-friendly religious groups, said she’s met with gay and lesbian Russians who have been beaten, stabbed and burned as Russia cracks down.

“It’s really disturbing when a religious leader seems to endorse laws that lead to this kind of behavior,” she said.

(Adelle M. Banks and Cathy Lynn Grossman contributed to this report)

YS/AMB END ECKSTROM

196 Comments

    • And Pol Pot was better at dealing with overpopulation than Carter was.

      How shameful is it that an American religious leader is praising a person who has brought back the term pogrom to modern parlance. Here is the honest face of the American religious right. One which openly works abroad to encourage human rights abuses, discrimination and persecution that they cannot accomplish in the US.

      • Dear Religious people – fascism is God. God is a fascist concept.

        The Russian Orthodox church has a lot in common with the Evangelicals in America. They want to use government to enforce their convictions.

        Beware of these dangerous toys:
        Religion, God, Righteousness, Moral authority.
        None of them are ‘compassionate’ and none of them are free.

        • Re: “Dear Religious people – fascism is God. God is a fascist concept.”

          This is true and in more ways that one. The ideology known as “fascism” was the product of Catholic clerical/political activists in Italy.

        • Augustine Thomas

          Atheists have murdered more people than any other group.

          The Church built modernity. You’re an ignorant ingrate who would be killed if it weren’t for Christians who were the first to stop the murder of atheists. (Atheists were always put to death because they bring nothing positive to the world and only try to rip things apart to make the world as miserable as they are with no God.)

          • Augustine Thomas…Wrong on all counts.
            YOU are unaware apparently that The Good Samaritan was very likely an ATHEIST?

            You would be ENSLAVED, IN JAIL, SICK or DEAD without the power of Atheism to protect you EVERY DAY – don’t forget it!

            THE AWE INSPIRING WONDERS OF ATHEISM:

            FIRST – Why are Atheists so good?
            Less than HALF of each Religious dollar goes to anything useful. Talk about waste!

            What do Atheists contribute?
            While Religion wastes billions of dollars building houses of superstition and holy books full of hatreds against other religions and loathing of humanity ….

            These ATHEIST organizations, as in connected to NO churches, are saving the world:

            Doctors Without Borders,
            The Foundation Beyond Belief
            Goodwill Industries,
            Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation,
            Warren Buffet Foundation,
            Oxfam International,
            Rotary International,
            American Red Cross,
            SEED foundation, United Children’s Fund,
            Sierra Fund, National Campaign to prevent Teen Pregnancy,
            Treatment Action Campaign, Women’s Defense League
            US Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers,
            Plan USA, Tanzanian Children’s Fund
            National Academy of Science,
            The ACLU….etc.

            Atheists spend BILLIONS on saving lives EVERY YEAR!

            SECOND – We go further to promote education and culture also!

            Atheists have done MORE for humanity than any other group:

            While religious people pray for cures – Atheists create medicine.
            While religious people pray for food – Atheists create agriculture
            While religious people burn witches – Atheists promote the enlightenment.
            While religious people ban condoms – Atheists distribute millions saving countless lives from AIDS in Africa.
            While religious people burn books – Atheists develop the internet and social media
            While religion oppresses women and creates poverty – Atheists have emancipated women and lessened poverty.

            While religious people kill over imaginary Gods…
            Atheists create Church/State separation!
            ONLY THE THOROUGH REJECTION OF RELIGION such as that from Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin created the religious freedom you enjoy under the Constitution of the United States.

            The Scientists working to understand climate change are almost entirely Atheist.

            While Christians and Muslims fill the prisons,
            the Atheist population in prison is statistically ZERO.

            What does Religion do?
            It feeds a few thousand poor people while all the while spending billions of dollars apologizing for a God who never shows up to save the 17 MILLION CHILDREN who will starve THIS YEAR ALONE !

            While ATHEISTIC Science does the heavy lifting of saving lives and making this world better….

            Monks, Priests and Imams live in the dark corners and argue against science and work to PREVENT THE TRUTH FROM REACHING MILLIONS OF PEOPLE!

            THESE ATHEISTS HAVE NEVER DONE ANYTHING GOOD?

            Thomas Edison
            The Beatles – George, Paul, John and Ringo
            Charles Schultz (creator of Peanuts)
            Jacques Yves Cousteau
            Abraham Lincoln – “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my religion.”
            Roger Ebert
            Einstein
            Linus Carl Pauling
            Maurice Sendak
            Helen Keller
            Warren Buffet – Billionaire philanthropist
            Jonas Salk (discoverer of the Polio vaccine)
            Andy Rooney
            David Hume
            Ray Romano
            Ted Williams
            Scott Joplin
            Marlene Deitrich
            Butterfly McQueen
            Billy Joel
            Sigmund Freud
            Bruce Lee
            Bill Nye
            Susan B. Anthony
            William Shatner
            Marlon Brando
            Noam Chomsky
            Katherine Hepburn
            Helen Mirren
            Andrew Carnegie
            Richard Branson
            Kurt Vonnegut
            Gene Wilder
            Virginia Wolf
            Charlie Chaplin
            Richard Rodgers
            Arthur Schleshinger Jr.
            Frida Kahlo
            Ernest Hemmingway
            Carl Sagan
            Oscar Wilde
            Frank Zappa
            Mark Zuckerberg
            Jamie Hyneman
            George C Scott
            Andy Rooney
            Daniel Radcliffe
            ‪Carl Sagan
            Daniel Ratcliff
            Penn and Teller
            ‪Arthur Miller
            Barry Manilow
            Kevin Bacon
            Burt Lancaster
            George Orwell
            Steve Jobs
            ‪Mark Twain
            ‪Voltaire
            ‪George Carlin
            Rodney Dangerfield
            ‪Adam Savage – Mythbusters
            George Bernard Shaw
            Simon de Beauvoir
            ‪Isaac Asimov
            Thomas Paine
            ‪Gene Roddenberry – creator of Star Trek
            Rod Serling – creator of The Twilight Zone
            John Stossel
            AC Grayling
            Dan Dennett
            Thomas Mann
            Noel Coward
            Jodie Foster
            Stephen Fry
            Margot Kidder
            Larry King
            Keira Knightley
            Brad Pitt
            Robyn Williams
            Stanley Kubrick
            Neil DeGrasse Tyson – Physicist
            Richard Feynman – Physicist
            Buckminster Fuller
            Gene Kelly
            Paul Robeson

            YOU REALLY THINK ATHEISM IS SO BAD?
            Evangelicals sent $100 Million last year to Israeli settlers taking Palestinian lands to “bring about” the second coming of Jesus!
            Religion is so over-rated it is disgusting.

          • Spare the world your triumphalism and go read some history before you prattle on further about things you clearly know little about.

          • Nearly every war throughout all of history was caused by the lust for power and religious dominance. Ever heard of the Crusades? Latin Catholic soldiers marched all through Europe and Asia killing an estimated five million people, raping all the women along the way, and stealing everything in their path. Hitler was considered to be Jewish during his extermination of over 11 million people, Stalin was named after St. Joseph and embraced Christianity when he killed over 14 million people, Pol Pot served under a branch of Buddhism where he killed 2 million. The list goes on and on all throughout history. An Atheist has no motive in doing these sort of acts. How can they get any blame? Try looking up the facts or thinking before making such radical statements.
            - Currently studying world history and religion

      • Graham directly said, “I am not endorsing Putin.” Graham clearly said, Putin “may be wrong about many things.”

        But the fact IS that gay marriage is wrong. Period. Every day and twice on Sunday. Automatic gold-plated invitation to disaster and divine judgment. Putin is watching this unfolding disaster in America, and he is refusing to allow Russia to go down the toilet like the USA.

        So without endorsing Putin or all of Putin’s methods, Graham is simply pointing out that Putin at least takes the position that Americans used to take when they were still morally and spiritually sane — that gay marriage is totally wrong, totally messed up.

        Obama used to understand that same truth, but now he’s totally deceived, totally confused, a bigger gay activist than the gay activists themselves. Indeed “shameful”, as Graham said.

        America’s boat is about to sink. Russia’s boat is old and leaky, but it will stay afloat and in power while America rapidly becomes another Titanic.

        • It’s so sad to see how disloyal anti-gays are to our country, telling us how much they hate and fear freedom and equality, and how much they love Putin and his totalitarian regime. Each anti-gay Hate Vote was an attempt to subvert the United States Constitution, and, fortunately, our courts are systematically revoking those acts of sedition.

          • For most people like that, it’s their god before country, and that’s truly the saddest thing in all of this.

        • Please, please repent. Defending Graham’s statements is a sign of a small, petty, and hard heart. Please don’t compound his apostasy with logic chopping arguments. He’s enamored with power, with dictators really. His praise of Assad is beyond disgusting. Please cease your double-mindedness and equivocation, which is almost as bad as Graham himself. You really don’t want to end up like him. Repent.

          • @ERIC,
            You are a good guy. I’m sure.
            But the Jesus is all Doc Anthony can see. It is absolutist faith. Jesus is a Totalitarian dictator – LOVE GOD’S LAWS as they are written, or else…Hell awaits.

            Give an inch and the atheists will take a mile. (And we will).

            Religion is the poison. There is no afterlife to pray for. No God.
            We all may be able to build a better world if we can just climb down from these old absolutist fables.

          • No, I am calling on gay marriage activists and their pals — and especially the Christian ones because they already know they’re in the wrong — to repent. What you’re doing is leading to disaster.

            As for Syria, did you publicly call on Obama to repent for supporting and aiding the Syrian rebels WITHOUT first obtaining at least an idea of who some of them were or what groups they were aligned with? Hmm?

            And what evidence do you have that, if the rebels win thanks to Obama’s help, persecution and slaughter of Syrian Christians would NOT take place as Graham warned about? Will the rebels respect that Syrian constitution or will they scrap it and kill Syrian Christians?

            While you’re pondering those problems, America has got huge troubles of her own. America has her own big disaster coming — and soon! — if SHE doesn’t repent of this gay marriage mess.

          • Doc…why bring Syria into this? What do you expect Obama to do? Boots on the ground? Christians and Muslims have been fighting for centuries. They would all put down their weapons tomorrow if they could just see that there is no God up there. These cultures are dying because they are indefensible. Jesus isn’t there to save Christians. Allah won’t save Muslims. It is all pretend.
            There are millions of atheists, we have figured this out. Peace won’t come from supporting various religions and tribes – only by admitting the basic principal is not true. There isn’t a god watching over us. we all need to get off religion somehow. Won’t be easy or quick but still must happen.

          • Doc,

            I honestly can’t believe what I’m reading. You are defending Assad and second-guessing the rebels–all because you think Assad protects Christians and some of the rebels might be linked to Muslim extremist groups? Assad is a monster. Period. Tell the mother whose two children were murdered by his snipers as she carried them that you care more about Christians than her. Tell her that is what “Christians” like you really care about. Tell her because the snipers that killed her children in the street deliberately left her alive.

            It is difficult to describe just how contemptible your statements are. If you have anything to say about Assad besides calling him a vile dictator, you have zero standing to saying about morality period. If you all you care about it is how Christians fare in Syria, you are small-minded misanthrope loyal only to your tribe. If you think God will punish America for gay marriage before he punishes Assad for murder and torture, your god is nothing but a monster too.

            I’d ask again for your to pray and repent. But I’m worried now that your heart has grown too hard.

          • It’s really sad to see “Doc” try to blame Jesus for his disloyalty to America.

        • So your bigotry is so all consuming that you are willing to support political violence against people and turn your back on your nation in favor of autocrats.

          Please by all means, if you think Russia is such a nice place, don’t let me stop you from going there. I am sure we can even take up a collection to put you on the first flight to Moscow.

          • Hitch your wagon to “GOD” and misery awaits. Fascism is all it is.
            I know, you want it to be about ‘love and compassion’ but it isn’t.
            It really isn’t. God is for suckers.

          • Nobody is saying that Russia is “a nice place.” Don’t forget, atheists like yourself were in charge of the government (under the banner, “Soviet Union”) for many many years, and millions of people got hurt — more accurately, dead — in the process.

            I’m not trying to paint anybody with Stalin’s brush, but atheists do need to keep in mind that THEIR belief system, not Putin’s current theistic belief system, is why Russia suffered so much damage in the past and still is far from completely healed.

            Again, like Graham suggested, there’s no endorsements of Putin’s methods here. Nobody’s endorsing political violence. But Putin has retained some vital, religion-based ethics and morals which Barack Obama — and America’s atheists like yourself — have clearly lost.

          • @Doc,
            Dictators are the problem. Religion is the vehicle.
            It worked for Stalin. Same for Putin today.
            Solution? Separation of Church and State.
            How? Increase secular principals.
            How? Tell religious people the truth – there isn’t a god up there making your ‘truth’ more ‘true’ than somebody else’s truth. Dump the ancient fables.

          • Graham made a weaselworded endorsement of Putin’s policy. People like him had a hand in implementing it. Graham is endorsing political violence by praising Putin and turning a blind eye to what is going on there. Putin has climbed into bed with religious forces which want to bring back the pogroms of old. Putin has merely adopted reactionary rhetoric and politics in order to retain power. If you live in a democratic nation and find Putin’s actions remotely admirable you are a blithering moron.

            Your defense of Putin and Graham is complete and utter bullcrap. What you want to say is that you fully agree with using violence and imprisonment against gays (or non-believers) but you are too much of a coward to say it openly.

            Equating atheists with communists is pure slander. But you know that and continue to make the same historically ignorant, stupid, remarks to that effect. Stalin and every other murderous dictator had little concern for any belief which goes beyond absolute loyalty to them or death.

          • Sorry, “Doc,” it’s too late for you to try to walk away from your support for Putin and Russia.

        • @DOC,
          you said, “America’s boat is about to sink.”

          Ridiculous! Just because we are abandoning religion?
          Look at Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan – God is fascism and fascism kills everything. Religion is primitive nonsense.

          Funny how you want Government out of everything except your bedroom!

        • Re: “But the fact IS that gay marriage is wrong. Period.”

          No, it is not a “fact.” That statement cannot be objectively verified. You can SAY it’s “fact,” but really, it’s just your own subjective value judgement, and has no meaning aside from that.

          Re: “So without endorsing Putin or all of Putin’s methods, Graham is simply pointing out that Putin at least takes the position that Americans used to take when they were still morally and spiritually sane — that gay marriage is totally wrong, totally messed up.”

          Yes, and once upon a time, Americans used to think slavery was acceptable, and to use your own words, “morally and spiritually sane.” But we no longer think this way. People actually changed their minds about it. Really, this is no different.

          Mature adults can handle the world changing around them. Sniveling little children, can’t. Graham is in that latter camp, obviously.

        • Daniel Berry, NYC

          Doc I can’t help noticing how you go out of your way to post diatribes against gay people every time an article affecting us appears on this blog. It makes me wonder what your _real_ issue is.

          • It’s important to reme3mber anti-gays are disturbed individuals, Mr. Berry. Psychologists identified homophobia as a mental illness and published their results in the Journal of the National Institutes of Health in 1953, but Freud himself coined the term. Homophobia is the irrational fear, disgust, or hatred of gays, lesbians, and/or bisexual people, or of homosexual feelings in oneself. It refers to the discomfort one feels with any behavior, belief, or attitude (in self or others) that does not conform to traditional sex role stereotypes. Homophobia exhibits itself in the fear of knowing, befriending, or associating with gays, lesbians, or bisexual people; fear of being perceived as gay or lesbian; and/or fear of stepping out of accepted gender role behavior. Psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

          • I know, I know, the usual gay tactic is to indirectly accuse the critics of the homosexual movement of being gay. It intimidates some people from speaking out on the issue, but not me.

            All people are created equal. All lifestyles are not. And a very bad trend is developing in America.

          • Except this one is backed by a scientific study published in a peer reviewed journal accepted in the field of psychology. Scientific evidence.
            http://my.psychologytoday.com/files/u47/Henry_et_al.pdf

            Speaking out against the life of another shouldn’t have social sanction anyway. Nobody is making it illegal for you to speak your mind. Your right to express your views is unimpeded by law.

            If people are embarrassed about expressing their bigotry, so be it. That is the price we pay for living in a civil society with people besides yourself.

          • Several other studies corroborate that study, Larry. Here are just a few more that prove:

            “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

            http://www.landman-psychology.Com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal.pdf

            http://psycnet.apa.Org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

            An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.Gov/pubmed/8772014

          • Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

            http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=AEuDDvqYbVw

            How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

            http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=1CQg9f7z9eg&feature=youtu.be

          • By the way, Doc, I didn’t say you were an LGBT American, but you yourself have made it clear you aren’t heterosexual.

        • “But the fact IS that gay marriage is wrong. Period.”

          Well, good. Thanks for the last word. It must be so comforting to know the discussion is closed.

        • Maybe you should go live in Russia, then, since it is such a great country. In 100 years, they, too, will have marriage equality. They are a little behind the United States, in case you haven’t noticed. But if you think your quality of life would be better in Russia, by all means, apply for citizenship there. Good luck.

      • Not to mention the Catholic dogma that is perpetuating poverty, overpopulation, and the spread of HIV/AIDS in Africa by its rigid stance on birth control (condoms).

  1. Articles like this are the reason for my furious tirades against religion.

    “Graham is praising Russian President Vladimir Putin for his aggressive crackdown on homosexuality…”

    30% of Christianity is about ‘love’ and ‘compassion’.
    But 70% is about killing people who are not getting behind the program!

    “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King, and Execute Them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

    The Parable of the 12 Minas may be the most dangerous story in any ‘holy book’ ever written. It was probably Hitler’s favorite parable, leading to the deaths of 6 million Jews.

    And yet you would think that if Jesus was really ‘God’ and IF he really understood humanity he would never have left these horrific words as his legacy.

    Here is Jesus’ legacy, then, paraphrased: “Forgive your enemies, but kill mine”
    And the killing continues :-(

    Religion must be abandoned. It is all nonsense.

      • You are full of crap Edward.

        Putin has the full endorsement of the Russian Orthodox Church in his actions. He openly courted them as a way to solidify power away from the usual former Soviet oligarchs. The persecution of gays was their proposal. It goes hand in hand with anti-blasphemy laws.

      • Graham and Putin are both religionists.
        Putin is enforcing obedience to the state religion which is increasingly….Putin.
        Remember Stalin? Same thing.

        “At his very first meeting with Putin, Putin told (Bush) a story about a cross that he had blessed in Israel that used to belong to his grandmother.
        People that are aware of this conversation at the State Department feel that the President got played by Putin. There is no cross.
        There was just some KGB story that he made up. But it had a real impact on President Bush. That’s when he walked out and said, ‘I looked into his soul and decided this is a guy I can work with.’ And for the longest time in the first term, if you talked to then National Security Adviser Rice, she always painted the relationship with Russia in very rosy terms. …”
        – GLENN KESSLER, WASHINGTON POST

        Religion is meant for suckers. It attracts suckers and it turns them into worse suckers.
        The worst combination is religion by the state.

        • No one is fooled by the dishonest, anti-gay business owners who violated their states’ anti-discrimination laws when they attacked the same gender couples, “Doc.” Recently, the United States Supreme Court refused to hear the appeal of a New Mexico anti-gay photographer who was convicted of that crime. That’s after the US Supreme Court has examined many such anti-discrimination laws and found them fully Constitutional.

          But a group of anti-gay lawyers from the so-called “Alliance Defending Freedom Of Faith” just can’t accept this settled law, and are on a fool’s errand trying to get these laws declared unconstitutional. These anti-gays are going around the country looking for anti-gay bakers, photographers, florists, and other wedding industry suppliers to violate these laws, promising to defend them for free and pay any fines involved. Research this and any other of these cases, and you will see these “Alliance” lawyers are involved in ALL these cases.

          As bad as it is for hapless anti-gays to be posting the nonsense rhetoric of the shameful lawyers here, the lawyers themselves are inciting these crimes, and should be investigated, and disbarred in some cases.

        • Yes, how awful it must be to have “fascists” preventing poor, put-upon, downtrodden devout Christians from forcing gays to live within a kind of “Jim Crow” framework. Those intolerable gays simply MUST be treated like second-class citizens, because Jesus wanted it that way. It must be horrible to have the legal system thwarting this sacred effort!

          • Take a good, hard look at these comments condemning your disloyalty, “Doc.” Americans are all on to anti-gays and your attempts to destroy our country, our freedom and our equality.

        • Daniel Berry, NYC

          ask gay people the world over about being beaten and murdered for being gay–and then come back here and talk to me about you poor persecuted christians.

    • Max- you said well, “This PARABLE”… Men have misinterpreted & misused the scriptures (of ALL “holy books”) throughout the ages. This is a bad reflection on man not on God. Jesus was not here endorsing killing our fellowman because we don’t agree on religion… Jesus later said, “By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves.”—John 13:35; see also Romans 14:19; Galatians 6:10; 1 John 3:10-12.
      History confirms that the first-century Christians would not shed human blood. A former professor of theology from England, Peter De Rosa, writes: “Shedding blood was a grievous sin. This was why Christians opposed gladiatorial combat. . . . While war and the use of force were necessary to preserve Rome, Christians felt unable to join in. . . . Christians considered themselves, like Jesus, messengers of peace; in no circumstances could they be agents of death.” On the other hand, the disunited religions of Christendom have violated the commandment of love and have shed an enormous amount of blood. They have not been messengers of peace but have repeatedly been agents of death.
      FALSE Religion must be abandoned…. it is doomed to destruction.

      • Fmr Cath,

        Who is to say what is “True religion”? I haven’t met one yet.

        True compassion, true empathy, tending to the needy? That isn’t religion and Jesus has nothing to add but trouble.
        I know such good people who are Atheists
        working with “Doctors Without Borders”.

        But once you say “GOD” you have rules to enforce. And “GOD” has no checks and balances – everything is fair game! Even genocide (especially genocide)
        Just ask St. Joan of Arc or Saint Vladimir of Kiev!

      • Fmr Cath, There is no ‘good’ or healthy interpretation of scripture. That is my point. You won’t find a good way to interpret any of this stuff.
        People are good in spite of religion. Not because of it. I really doubt that a god is up there somewhere helping any of this along.

  2. It’s absolutely appalling that Franklin Graham – having sold out his father to the GOP in 2012 election – would now prefer to side with Putin than Obama. He chooses autocracy and state-condoned violence against gays instead of freedom. He is a traitor to American values.

  3. Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    One phrase F.G. said struck home with me: Russia is “protecting children from any homosexual agenda or propaganda.”
    Apparently the public schools of Russia won’t be doing what a number of public school systems in the U.S. are doing — forcing the homosexual agenda and propaganda on children.

    • Does Mr. Bresnahan really think he will sell that standard anti-gay LIE here?

      Want to know what the “homosexual agenda” really is? It’s Equal Protection Under The Law, which is the agenda of every real American. By demonstrating not only that they oppose and want to subvert the United States Constitution, and by giving aid and comfort to America’s enemies, anti-gays demonstrate they are disloyal. Mr. Franklin’s passport should be revoked, along with the passports of disloyals like Scott Lively, who seek to cheapen and destroy America’s reputation abroad by trying to infect other countries with their homophobia.

      • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

        LIE??? :: Just two headlines from a long list of similar story headlines on Google:
        ” Calif. Gov. signs law mandating pro-gay curriculum”
        “Calif. to require Gay History”
        One wonders what will be bumped from the school’s course schedule to make room for gay propaganda.
        Similar stuff has been going on in the area where I live with parents even being threatened with arrest for demanding to see school superintendents.

        • Telling high school juniors about the first openly LGBT elected official, Harvey Milk, being gunned down in cold blood is NOT “homosexual propaganda,” and high school juniors are NOT “children,” Mr. Bresnahan. That’s the FACTS about the California FAIR Education Act, not the LIES you posted. Anti-gays in California failed to fool California voters into falling for those same lies and were unable to cook up yet another anti-gay Hate Vote because not even one percent of California voters would sign their Hate Vote petitions.

          Spare us your continuing LIES about “parents even being threatened,” Mr. Bresnahan. Not ONE American will ever be fooled again by such obvious LIES.

          • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

            One example of what you call LIES happened in Lexington, Ma. to a father–David Parker. He was arrested after daring to object to -along with some other parents– what that extremist liberal town was teaching his child. As I recall the schools wouldn’t even let the child alone by letting him stay home on a few days so as to not be subjected to the schools’ radical ideologies–mostly on gay issues.

          • David Parker is a law-breaking criminal anti-gay. You didn’t bother to document your misrepresentation of the events, did you, Mr. Bresnahan? But anyone who wants to know the FACTS can find out you’re lying again. This habit anti-gays have of lying is one of the reasons for the failure of your anti-gay agenda.

        • @DEACON JOHN,,
          You remind me why the complete abandonment of religion is a matter of international importance.

          Gays are people who were born differently. You might as well be ranting against children with down’s syndrome or people with higher than average IQs.

          Such is your fascistic, hateful, bigoted, divisive faith called Christianity.
          It is so much worse than any Christian appears to comprehend. A true fountain of evil.

          • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

            Looking at comments here by defenders of the Gay Agenda (Gay” marriage,” control of education, vicious attacks on any who disagree with them) one begins to see how modern atheism and secularism gave birth to atheistic Communism and its massive souless killing of millions of people.

          • Dream on, Deacon. No one but you is convinced by overwrought rhetoric like this. Your fantasies of persecution are just that: the fever-dreams of small-minded people who can’t stand the fact they share a world with others. No, Deacon, the world isn’t ending and no one is coming for you.

          • Mr.Bresnahan, how about you just DROP that standard anti-gay WHINE that your intended VICTIMS are “the real bullies” for debunking your anti-gay lies?

    • You mean he is reintroducing the religiously inspired pogrom after a century of dormancy.

      Protecting the public from having to treat gays like human beings by locking them up and promoting mod violence against them. Much like how the Czars used to handle the Russian Jewish population in the late 19th Century to 1917.

    • Please repent of your lies and deceit and false teaching. Praising an autocrat and praising state-sponsored discrimination and condoning violence–these are evil things and you should be ashamed for finding something worthy of admiration among them. Perhaps you would be happier in today’s Russia, if it is more suited to your fantasies and fears.

  4. Marianne Duddy-Burke, who heads the gay Catholic group DignityUSA and is a member of the National Religious Leadership Roundtable of gay-friendly religious groups, said she’s met with gay and lesbian Russians who have been beaten, stabbed and burned as Russia cracks down.

    “It’s really disturbing when a religious leader seems to endorse laws that lead to this kind of behavior,” she said.

  5. And while Franklin makes these controversial statements, we ignore his ginormous salary, the highest in religious non-profits on this list

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/21/best-paid-religious-nonprofits_n_4124718.html

    Back in 2009 he faced embarrassment for drawing 2 gargantuan salaries, one from the BGA, and one from Samaritan’s Purse. http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/10/franklin_graham_moves_to_addre.html

    • Frank! Principal of the “I’m Rubber, You’re Glue” School of Debate! Listen, Frank, ol’ Franklin can’t speak the truth. It would ruin his lucrative career and vainglorious desire for power. No, Graham has no interest in the truth. Or in Christianity. So, he preaches hate and fear and lies. But don’t worry, Frank. Jesus is knocking right now, inviting you to repent and give up those lies. Will you let him in?

  6. What Franklin Graham should have been left by his father–except that the father never touched one, didn’t have one to leave–was a good high school textbook in science. Another in social studies wouldn’t have hurt father or son either, but that would have had to be more up to date than in either Graham’s time. The Grahams make a very lucrative business out of religion. And their bible-thumping followers are hoodwinked.

    The Grahams and their sort don’t even know the difference between religion and politics, between churches and government. Worst of all, they don’t know the difference between our Constitution and government and the biblical royalty they promote. Well, they may know the difference, but as long as they can fool their fool followers and the money keeps rolling in to enable them to live atop their fenced-in mountain, they don’t give a hoot.

  7. Truth_and_Reason

    50% of a child’s genetic makeup comes from the father and 50% from the father. It doesn’t require a PhD. and family studies to know that child do best when raised by a father and mother.

    I think the definitive answer on the importance of fathers and mothers to a child’s development comes from the homosexual community themselves. Lesbian couples feel that mothers, not fathers, are the most important parent for child development; gay (male) couples feel that fathers, not mothers, are the most important parent for child development. The only logical conclusion you can draw from these contradictory views is that a mother and father are both critical for well-formed children.

    I think the following best expresses the problem with homosexual parenting. Lesbian parent Rosie O’Donnell was interviewed by Diane Sawyer on ABC years ago. Rosie was asked by her son, “Mommy, why can’t I have a daddy?” Rosie answered, “Because I’m the kind of mommy who wants another mommy.” How many other children around the country are asking why they can’t have a mommy or daddy when they see other kids with a mom and dad. True love is wanting the best for the other person. How can anyone say they love a child when their relationship precludes them from giving that child the love of a father or a mother! Gay marriage didn’t work back in the time of the Greek and Roman empires, and it won’t work now. Keep our children pure.

    • Sorry, Untruth, not ONE legitimate expert supports your homophobic LIES.

      “Children deserve to know that their relationships with both of their parents are stable and legally recognized. This applies to all children, whether their parents are of the same or opposite sex. The American Academy of Pediatrics recognizes that a considerable body of professional literature provides evidence that children with parents who are homosexual can have the same advantages and the same expectations for health, adjustment, and development as can children whose parents are heterosexual. When 2 adults participate in parenting a child, they and the child deserve the serenity that comes with legal recognition.”

      http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;109/2/339

      • Truth_and_Reason

        Some one has to speak for the rights of children Eric.

        “But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea.”

        • You are not speaking for children. You are advocating intentional stumbling blocks to families trying to raise children in a sane manner. You are speaking out of your sphincter, preferring children to be with no parents or one parent rather than in a loving family. Your contempt for children is obvious from your posts.

          • Truth_and_Reason

            Larry, your arguments are all emotional and lack common sense. Why do you think homosexuals have been going around the country shutting down daddy-daughter dances. Because daughters in lesbian households are hurt that they don’t have a dad. I suggest you read some of Robert Oscar Lopez’s comments regarding being raised in a lesbian household. He calls it child abuse.

          • I am not the liar here, feigning concern for families with spurious, fact free logically bereft arguments.

            You mean those dances which are cross between celebrating incest and pimping one’s offspring to pedophile significabtly older male friends. All in the name of treating a girl’s virginity like a commodity of her father. I don’t think gays are the people opposed to those. Just people with good taste

          • Sorry, Untruth, I’ve already documented that you’re lying here.

            Anti-gays always lie.

        • What Larry said. Kinda hard to believe people like you are still recycling long-discredited stereotypes and slander, but it does suggest a growing level of desperation on your part, “Truth.” Using children as an excuse for your bigotry is just sad. Please repent of your lies and false teachings.

        • @Truth_and_Reason,

          You said…”he that shall scandalize one of these little ones…should be drowned” – JESUS

          EXACTLY.
          BECAUSE….They might be worth something as SEX slaves:

          “When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her….” (Exodus 21:7-11)

          Or God may have his own ideas:

          “Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little children against the stones.” (Psalm 137:9)

          “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.” (Isaiah 13:15)

          GOD COMMANDS ABORTIONS
          “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer… Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, YET WILL I SLAY even the beloved fruit of their womb.” (Hosea 9:11-16)

          AND JESUS IS (ODDLY) IS UPSET AT THE HYPOCRISY?
          Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?…‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’(Matthew 15:3)

          Yup. Looks like God wants you to protect the children SO HE CAN SCANDALIZE THEM HIMSELF!

          Isaac: “What are you doing, Dad?”
          Abraham: “let’s play bad guy. You be the victim…”

          That wouldn’t screw up a kid, would it?

          • Truth_and_Reason

            Actually, the Old Testament revolves around the breaking of God’s commandments, punishment of the Jews or other tribes, reconciliation of the Jews back to God. And the cycle would repeat itself. God punished those who broke his commandments in various ways depending of the severity of the sin. For severe sins such as the sacrificial offering children to Baal or fornication or homosexuality, he wiped out whole populations if the practice was wide-spread, and there was no hope of reparation. Sounds like the direction our society is heading, doesn’t it.

          • @Truth & Reason,

            You meant to say “JESUS wiped out whole populations.”
            Jesus IS Yahweh, as you know?

          • We see that Untruth will even LIE about the Bible. Ezekiel 16:49:

            “Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.”

          • Truth_and_Reason

            Atheist Max: Because you haven’t found Jesus that doesn’t mean other people haven’t. If you were 100% certain that God didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be on this site. As G.K. Chesterton said: If there were no God, then there would be no atheists. Finding God is easy if you’re humble and detach yourself from all the corruption in our society.

          • Untruth, can’t you act like an American and accept the fact that you aren’t in a position to demand that others share your “beliefs”?

        • @Truth_&_Reason,

          “Because you haven’t found Jesus that doesn’t mean…”
          Wrong. I was a Christian for 44 years. I changed my mind when I discovered religion is a dangerous cultural mistake.

          “If you were 100% certain that God didn’t exist, you wouldn’t be on this site.” …
          Wrong. I am on this site to study Religion as a surgeon studies cancer. I want to study why it spreads and how its worst damages can be contained without further harm to people.

          “As G.K. Chesterton said: If there were no God, then there would be no atheists.”…that is like saying if there were no Televisions none of them would be turned off. Or, if there were no cancer there would be no cancer doctors, or even worse – There would be no A-leprechaunists if there were no Leprechauns!….It is a VERY stupid quote indeed.

          “Finding God is easy if you’re humble”…
          HUMBLE? Certainly not. Pride and ego are required to accept the extraordinarily solipsistic claims that the great creator of the universe is at your beck and call and with a few ‘humble’ prayers the laws of nature can be changed… IN YOUR FAVOR!!! Some humility.

          I am an Atheist. I do not CLAIM that god is impossible, only that I do not believe God exists.

          You have surrendered your critical faculties to join what you think is a benevolent dictator – one who stands like an invisible, invincible friend. Trouble is, you need other people to believe that he exists, otherwise your own doubts creep in.

          Religion is novocaine for the brain.

          • AMAX..,,,ha! I’ve argued with you on some things.but I agree with you here. Kickin’ response.. “like saying if there were no Televisions none of them would be turned off” true lol. You’d make the pope consider whether he shuold quit!

          • Truth_and_Reason

            “I changed my mind when I discovered religion is a dangerous cultural mistake.”

            How did you come to that conclusion? What church did you belong to?

          • You are doing a good job in justifying atheism, T&R.

            Rather than display humanity, honesty, or reason you claim comes from religious belief, you are showing its ugliness, deceit, and petty bigotry. There is nothing of value in your view of religion. No need to bother.

          • It looks to me like Untruth was planning to attack Max’s former beliefs as well as his current beliefs. Where Max once went to church is simply none of your business, Untruth.

    • “I think the definitive answer on the importance of fathers and mothers to a child’s development comes from the homosexual community themselves. Lesbian couples feel that mothers, not fathers, are the most important parent for child development; gay (male) couples feel that fathers, not mothers, are the most important parent for child development. The only logical conclusion you can draw from these contradictory views is that a mother and father are both critical for well-formed children. ” You are sputtering nonsensical totally made up bullsh*t. You should in fact go and get a PHD because you haven’t a single solitary clue as to what you are talking about.

  8. Dignity USA by its “Sodomic beliefs” quiet contrary to its name & is not recognized by the Catholic Church, but a Rogue according to the word “Catholic”

  9. Do replace the word “Dignity” with the word “Sodom” to read “Sodom USA’., for it is Biblical name to the Prophecy of “Spiritual Sodom & Egypt”. Sodom to the land of its modern emission in the beliefs of Ancient Egypt, the beliefs that killed Jesus,

    • abey, how much time a day do you fantasize about “sodomy”?

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/05/the-christian-rights-gay-problem.html

      “In 1996, three researchers from the University of Georgia published a study in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology about the links between homophobia and homosexual arousal. The authors, Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr, started with 35 straight men identified as homophobic and 29 straight men that were not. Both groups were shown heterosexual, lesbian and gay male porn while their erectile responses were measured. “Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli,” reported the researchers.

      It was empirical evidence for a theory long popular among psychoanalysts: that those most hostile to gay people are often driven by terror and shame about their own desires.”

    • Its interesting you use Sodom in such a fashion. Since the sins of Sodom were the oldest taboo of the Mediterranean region, treating strangers badly. Failing to show hospitality.

      As it can be seen, it is the people like yourself who are looking for new and interesting ways to treat others badly under the color of law or through coercive force. Very much like the doomed denizens of Sodom. The Sodomite, if you will, is yourself.

      Much like the Pharisees who allegedly condemned Jesus for his willingness to show humanity to all, in spite of religious proclamations, you display the beliefs that killed Jesus.

  10. For another, well researched and heavily footnoted viewpoint, try John L. Lewis’s book entitled, “The Global War on Christians”. ISBN 978-0-7704-3735-0. Perhaps a library near you has a copy.

  11. Finally, someone is speaking out in defense of legitimate Syrian President, Bashar al Assad and his constant protection of Christians. As an Orthodox Christian it is great to know that there are Christians out there who stand up for the truth.

    • Robert, you are an idiot of the highest order.

      The Assads committed mass murder (including gassing entire towns) as a regular tactic for maintaining order and you praise him because he left a politically useless minority alone. You so tribalistic that you will condone genocide and murder on industrial scales as long as its not your group on the receiving end. As a Christian, you should be ashamed of such an endorsement.

      • “As a Christian” he is required to forgive his enemies. But he is also required to NOT FORGIVE the LORD’s enemies: People of other beliefs, gays, Muslims, apostates, etc….

        This is why the phrase “as a Christian” should always be understood as evil incarnate.

  12. One minute Atheist Max is telling us Jesus condoned laws against homosexuality, then next he’s telling us Jesus condoned homosexuality.

    Max needs to make up his mind.

    • @The Crux,

      You said, “Max needs to make up his mind”

      No. My point is Christianity is just a parlor trick.

      “God hates Gays” (Leviticus 20:13)
      “God IS Gay” (Mark 7:14-16)

      Giving ABSOLUTE CREDENCE to ‘God’ is ruinous to humanity.
      The Bible is standing by to validate any awful thing you want to proclaim.
      It is all nonsense.

  13. Franklin Graham should probably have left well enough alone on mixing politics and religion. However, I agree with Shawnie5. Although I do not think she stated it, when the Supremes declare same-sex “marriage” legal in all 50 states, bisexuals will also demand their “right” to marry for LOVE. More chaos, anyone?

    • Why is it ‘Chaos’ if people do something completely harmless and loving – like get married? They are just making a deep commitment to each other and it is absolutely nobody’s business!

      What happened to “my kingdom is not of this world?”
      Then what’s all this poking around? Stay out of it!

      How on earth religious people make this their business is baffling. Just adds to the completely incoherent message of religion.

    • Rod, why do you have to lie so badly?

      You talk of the results of legalized gay marriage in the hypothetical. However, it has been legal in several countries and states for some time. If you had an honest concern about it, you would be able to point to things which have happened in those places. Instead you make up some nonsense about what mythical events you think might.

      “bisexuals will also demand their “right” to marry for LOVE. ”

      If they are limited to one partner, then there is no problem here. I think you meant polygamists but when you are so hopped up on stupid over-used arguments its easy to make that mistake, right? :)

  14. The whole ‘love the sinner, hate the sin’ is thoroughly, cynically, disingenuous, regardless of who touts it’s latest iteration. Homophobes use it as the classic “I was following orders” defense and it never fools anyone with an IQ higher than an earthworms.

  15. Putin was raised an Eastern Orthodox Christian, albeit in Communist Russia. While he is not a good practicing member of the faith and doesn’t follow church teaching
    much, his understanding of the Gospel is, by definition and upbringing, superior to that of an Evangelical. Graham shows his ignorance by suggesting that his father somehow educated Putin on the the Gospel.

  16. AbsolutelyTrue

    Atheist Max and CarrotCakeMan are trolls. I’m sure this was evident from reading their diatribes, which are so full of holes and lies that it would take hours to refute them (believe me, though, it’s mostly rubbish). If they care to respond to me, I will respond.

  17. Rev. Dorothy Okray

    Why is the Christian religion in decline? Because of the pathetic mind sets of so many Christian leaders, Franklin Graham being one of them. Homosexuality is natural. It can be found in almost every animal species. At one of my services, I offered to buy lunch for the first person who could find Jesus’ condemnation of homosexuality in the Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke or John. It was interesting to see so many people searching the scripture and a good way to teach. It cannot be found. It is only in the epistles that one can locate the topic of homosexuality…the same place that forbids women from speaking in church. It is no wonder that so many young people are disassociating themselves from Christianity.

  18. Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    The good rev. seems to have missed something about religious statistics– within Christianity It is the mainstream Protestant churches that are the incredibly shrinking churches (of which I presume she is one of their clergy). And these churches are supposedly doing everything right according to the leftist editorial pages of the NY Times.
    And while a good portion of Western Christendom is throwing out its own values and traditions, Islam has become the fastest growing religion according to many surveys. And the last time I looked Islam isn’t very gay or feminist friendly.

  19. @Rev. Dorothy Okray,

    I applaud your humanism. You are an excellent teacher.

    Perhaps you can enlighten me on this question – I mean it sincerely:
    I believe JESUS clearly endorsed Leviticus, including punishment of Gays. Can you explain why I am wrong?

    1.
    “Jesus replied: “‘LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”(Matthew 22:36-40)

    2.
    “In fact, this is love for God: to keep HIS COMMANDS.” (1 JOHN 5:3)
    “If you love me, keep MY commands.” (John 14: 15)

    3.
    Which commands must Christians follow? Jesus lists commands from the Old Testament including Leviticus 19:13 (“do not defraud”):
    “You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’” (Mark 10:19)

    4.
    Jesus already insisted on Leviticus 19:13 as a command which must be obeyed. So a few more lines away….
    “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a
    woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall
    surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Leviticus 20:13)

    5.
    Jesus reinforces the impression that TO LOVE GOD is to follow ALL of the law:
    He repeatedly includes the laws of the Old Testament:
    “Do NOT think that I have come to abolish the law [Old Testament] or the prophets…” (Matthew 5:17)
    “Jesus said,..the [Old Testament] scripture cannot be broken.” (John 10:35)
    “Jesus said…Not the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law…” (Matthew 5:18)

    6.
    And just to certain that Jesus is preaching old Testament to the Apostles:
    Jesus answered him referring to the Law of Moses, “It is said, ‘You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’” (Luke, 4:12)
    This is a direct reference to Deuteronomy 6:16.
    6:19 says “CAST OUT YOUR ENEMIES”.

    To conclude, Jesus repeatedly invokes the Laws of Exodus, Deuteronomy and Leviticus. TO LOVE GOD IS TO FOLLOW HIS LAW
    [(Mark 19:10)(Luke 4:12)(Matthew 22:36-40)]

    —-
    SO….Jesus supports Leviticus 20:13 to stand as valid – the law of execution for homosexuals.

    WHY is this a wrong interpretation of Jesus’ message?

    I am very interested in hearing your answer.

  20. Thank you for your kindness and respect, Rev. Okray. These denominations will marry same gender couples in 18 US States and the District of Columbia:

    Affirming Pentecostal Church International
    Alliance of Christian Churches
    Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
    The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
    Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
    Community of Christ
    Conservative Judaism
    Ecumenical Catholic Church
    Ecumenical Catholic Communion
    The Episcopal Church
    Evangelical Anglican Church In America
    Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
    Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
    Inclusive Orthodox Church
    Metropolitan Community Church
    Old Catholic Church
    Progressive Christian Alliance
    Reconciling Pentecostals International
    Reconstructionist Judaism
    Reform Judaism
    Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
    Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
    Unitarian Universalist Church
    United Church of Christ
    Unity Church

  21. But, in the ways that religion has always been an imagined, mythological substitute for fact, it has always had to fight for existence and promotion. And that need to fight is precisely what has always made religion so evil. They talk about “charity” and “justice” now and then, but look at the history of religion. No other human endeavor has ever been more cruel.

  22. I’d have to disagree. Main stream Protestantism is in decline, not Christianity; and the reason is exactly reflected in your comment– these Churches stand for nothing anymore and fall for everything. The fundamentalist churches are thriving as are the Eastern Orthodox Church, of which I’m a member (and I’ll bet Susan H is as we’ll), and the
    Mormons, among others.

    As an aside, many things are “natural”, but that doesn’t make them right. The purpose of Christianity is, in essence, to save man from many of the wrongs that were natural to him and make him better, not to celebrate what comes naturally to humankind. Perhaps the Presbyterians, Lutherans and Episcopalians have forgotten that.

  23. By the way, we know that Jesus was in favor of capital punishment.
    In the parable of the 12 Minas he describes the return of an angry nobleman (understood to be Jesus himself), “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their king, and Execute them in front of me.” (Luke 19:27)

    Apologists have said this parable is about separating the wheat from the chaff in the final day of judgement – but the nobleman is Jesus none the less.

    So I am curious how preachers today have arrived at a different conclusion.

  24. The answer to the growth of the Muslim religion, Mr. Bresnahan, is NOT an opposing religion. The time has come for humanity to let go of believing in mythology. We no longer need to look to gods for answers. Christians will either ignore scientific and historical evidence OR twist and re-interpret the bible so it appears to align with scientific and historical evidence which is becoming harder to do.ô As long as people believe in some life after death reward, there will be people willing to forgo their life on earth to get it. There certainly are some beautiful passages in both the Quran and Bible, but there are so many verses advocating violence, and it is up to the individual to choose which verses god wants them to follow. It is a time for common sense, reason, and empathy. Gay teens are committing suicide! Is it better to worry about some made up sin or the human being? Is it better to condemn teenagers for having sex and abortions, or tell them why they should wait to have sex while providing them with condoms? Is it really better to teach our children to be judgmental bigots, or to have compassion and respect for everyone?

  25. The short answer is that is an argument from silence. The longer answer would show that Jesus didn’t interpret his Scripture the way a modern literalist interprets his. The Sermon on the Mount is actually a good example, see Matthew 5-7. I’d recommend checking out Dale Martin’s Sex and the Single Savior if you really want to explore the question further.

  26. Please notice that she didn’t answer you. That is a hallmark of liberal Christians.

    They do NOT like being challenged regarding the Scriptures, especially if it sounds like you are somehow challenging their acceptance of homosexual behavior, gay marriage, etc, on Biblical grounds. C’est la vie.

  27. Maybe because the one time he was asked to approve an act of capital punishment, he refused? See John 8:1-11. I’m not saying Jesus was a modern lefty. I am saying there are textual grounds for opposing the death penalty in his name.

  28. Edward Borges-Silva

    I concede that in the future context, the nobleman is Jesus Himself; after He has allowed humanity ample time to repent of ALL their sins. I grant as you have stated, Atheists are not going away; but of course, neither is religion of any stripe. In some sense all of our arguing is pointless. There are no ‘seekers’ here, only those who are completely convinced of their own position, on both sides of these debates. I am content to wait for the final judgement of history. One point that you, Larry, and a few others have missed, which is surprising; Politicians like Putin, Hitler, Mao, even some of our presidents, are all prepared to co-opt religion as long as it gains them political capital… When religionists are no longer useful to them they will be discarded as easily as any other interest group which is no longer ‘useful.’

  29. @ERIC,

    Thanks for the suggestion about Dale Martin’s book. I’ll look into it.
    I have read that John 8:1-11 (‘the one among you without sin cast the first stone’) was an accretion from the 4th century. None of the earlier copies from the book of John from earlier centuries included that story and it is rather confirmed to have not been an original comment of Jesus.

    If Jesus “WAS YAHWEH on earth”, then Jesus, by definition agrees completely with the Old Testament Laws including ALL stoning laws – without any question – as He would have been the true AUTHOR of those laws. God CANNOT be against His own Laws!

    If Jesus was NOT Yahweh come to earth, that would explain why Jesus does go on record to disobey and show disdain for some Jewish laws.

    In other words, If Jesus was God, he must agree with stoning people to death, slavery and genocide.

    If Jesus was NOT God….then there is your explanation for his various disagreements with the Old Testament.

    Jesus was just a man.

  30. Are you speaking of “he who cast the first stone…”? If so, Jesus did NOT oppose the stoning. He did NOT tell them to disobey the law. He only told them to consider their own sins first.
    I apologize if this is not the incident to which you were referring.

  31. Stephani,
    Yes. That’s the one.
    I think Jesus did not actually say it since it is does not appear until 400 years after the other copies of John had already been written.
    But if Jesus did say it, he didn’t seem to object to the stoning.
    Christians should understand what a complication this would be if they want to claim Jesus was yahweh.

  32. I have been an atheist or nontheist for years but was passive. I just thought religion was a colossal waste of time, money, and energy. However, I saw Richard Dawkins in an interview and was persuaded to speak up. I have since read most of Hitchens, Sam Harris, Daniel Dennett, and many other atheist and biblical scholar authors as well. Articles like this one are published every day. It is time we all speak up!

  33. steph,..agreeing w/you. atheist max is right that the trend is going the non-believer’s way but time is running out. Belief in God is the problem but people don’t seem to see the danger. It takes courage to face it.

  34. “There are no ‘seekers’ here, only those who are completely convinced”

    Not exactly.
    If a god exists it would be a big story and I’d be the first to consider it.
    I know it can’t be Yahweh, Jesus or Allah. And the concept of any ‘God’ giving commands without Himself FIRST BEING A CLEAR ENTITY which everyone could agree on is a completely toxic, danger to the world.

    I’m an Atheist, which only means “I do not believe” in god.
    But I don’t claim to know for certain that there isn’t one.

  35. But He is a clear entity: “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.”
    Romans 1:20, Apostle Paul’s letter to the Roman Church, circa 60 A.D.

  36. Putin signed a bill that imposes fines for adults who promote “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors.”

    Putin’s trying to protect minors from a lot of messed up stuff. Can you give him credit for that much? Or does the religion of atheism forbid doing so?

  37. Edward Borges-Silva

    But MAX, Many of your declarative statements proclaim flatly that there is no God…that’s hardly the same as simply stating you don’t believe in Him. I was thumbing through a recent copy of Reader’s Digest where a physicist was quoted (His name escapes me), he stated that God is not provable empirically, by definition He is/or would be beyond Time and Space.

  38. @PAUL,
    You said, “He is a clear entity”.

    Then why is there no clear agreement?

    ISLAM: “…The Prophet said, ‘If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.’” Bukhari (52:260)

    CHRISTIANITY: “I am the way” (John)…. “bring to me those enemies who would not have me as their King, and Execute Them in front of me.” -Jesus (Luke 19:27)

    JUDAISM: “I am a Jealous God, you shall have not other Gods before me”(EXODUS)….”KILL the non-believers and those of other religions” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12)

    If you are quoting Holy Books you will find that religion is just a game of chicken. This Atheist is just trying to save you from yourselves.

  39. @DOC,
    Ridiculous.

    Protecting German children from the ‘evils of Jews’ was the rallying cry of the Nazi party! “EMERGENCY! save the children” is exactly how dictators play the game to build power. That is what Putin is doing.

    What the heck is “traditional ‘sexual relations” to a minor? I’m 100% sure the gay community isn’t guilty of disseminating anything to the children of RUSSIA. It is manufactured to inflame the fake emergency.

    And again!
    There is no reason to be against Gay people or Gay behavior – IT IS NOT IMMORAL. So what else can be said? It is not wrong to be gay. It is not wrong for two men to hold hands in public or to kiss. It is love!

    You are just being a sucker thrice.
    First for falling for the religious claims. Second for thinking gay is a sin. Third for thinking that is somehow bad for children to witness people in love.
    Jeeesh! We are not talking bout the sex act here!

  40. No, Doc, and please stop trying to find something admirable in thugs like Putin. I mean it’s helpful to see that so-called “Christians” are willing to get in bed with thugs and dictators as long as they hate the same people, but hearing it again and again is sickening. Please repent and give up your false idols. Jesus is waiting.

  41. Susan Humphreys

    Putin cares about Putin. He doesn’t care about minors. BUT he will certainly use them IF it suits his needs. Putin simply manipulates people and issues to get what he wants. He is taking the anti-homosexual stance simply because the US is moving towards equal rights for all.

  42. Atheism isn’t a religion. Once again simple facts elude you. And gay people aren’t harming kids. It’s always what Christians claim. Except when it happens in the Vatican of course. Then children are fair game, they cover it up and…blame it on gay people. Get your dirty house in order.

  43. Doc, my cat knows more about the Bible than you. You’ve simply turned into a pedestal for an idol of your own making, an idol of yourself really: a god who has the same prejudices and hates as you, but all the power you wish you had. But anytime you want to argue about the Bible, bring it on. This liberal Christian is more than ready.

  44. No, all denominations are NOT losing members. And if “homophobia” is truly the #1 reason for declining religious participation, one would expect that the denominations that are the most gay-friendly would be declining the least. However, the opposite is the case. The watered-down mainlines, and nominal Christianity (which has always been with us, only obscured previously by culture and conformity) are dwindling rapidly–and this is no great loss.

  45. @Edward,

    Yes. I have casually said “there is no God” and I do so as a matter of lack of personal belief, not a statement backed by proof. I don’t believe in a God so “there is no god” would be my default opinion.
    Atheism is only the lack of belief in a God.

    Just as someone who is an A-Leprechaunist could casually say “there are no Leprechauns.” That person can’t prove a negative so he must not CLAIM leprechauns to be impossible.

    So I have no proof that God absolutely does not exist – So I don’t claim it as FACT.
    I just say “God doesn’t exist” as a matter of opinion.

  46. There is that fundamentalist narcissism I keep talking about. God always agrees with the fundie, everyone else is just plain ignorant. Even when they are not. It makes you feel good and gives a false sense of superiority as the alleged bringer God’s voice to the world.

  47. @Eric,
    “Bring it”…

    Okay:
    “God” is a fascist concept and not a force for good.
    Once God and His supernatural ‘realm’ is dispensed with, The “Good” at least has a chance to prevail without the influence of absolutist dictates and other such nonsense.

    These Straw-men are NOT examples of Atheism:

    Stalin, a Russian Orthodox seminarian, was a self-appointed intermediary (CZAR) between God and the religion of the Soviet Russian state. He demanded FAITH in that religion including the miracles of Lysenko, or death. He thus motivated millions to kill millions.
    That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

    Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist who ‘divined supernatural heaven’ of which he appointed himself leader and he demanded allegiance as self-appointed head of the religion of the state of Cambodia. He was against all education and science. What Atheist ever did that?
He motivated millions to kill millions of others.
    That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

    Hitler and his SS were all confessing Catholics and Lutherans, hailed a faith in the Aryan Race divine by God’s judgement and demanded full faith in the religion of the state. “Gott Mit Uns” God With Us.
    Hitler’s favorite Parable was “The 12 Minas” where Jesus said, “Take those who would not let me be their King and execute them in front of me” – Jesus (Luke 19:27).
    That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

    Emperor Hirohito, was another cult of the Sun God – the sacrificial Kamikazes and the war with ‘sacred’ Japan.

    That is not Atheism – it is FAITH

    However, The United States has the only Godless Constitution in the world today, thanks to Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin – That is “A-THEISM”, not faith.

    You are FREE in America thanks to an agnostic document.

    WARS and death CAUSED DIRECTLY BECAUSE OF RELIGION:

    War on Aids – 20 Million Dead, Catholics obstructed condoms over a 20-year period through their clinics as women begged to be saved from their husbands (“Aids is bad but condoms are worse” – VATICAN)


    Spanish Inquisition – 200,000 dead – Catholic

    The Crusades – (1095 c.e. -1291 c.e.) 2,000,000 dead – (Catholic Fascists)
    Anti-Semitism – Millions dead over 2000 years EXCLUDING the Holocaust
 ( Christian fascists)
    Witch Hunts – 500,000 dead (Christian Fascists)
    Ireland – 600,000 dead (Catholic vs. Protestant)

    Rwanda 1994 (Catholic Fascists killed 1,000,000 with machetes)

    Taipeng Rebellion in China (1850 – 1864) 45 million dead (Christian Fascists)
    Boznia-Herzegovina (Catholic Fascists)

    The Ivory Coast civil wars (Catholic Fascists)

    Franco, the Spanish Civil War (Catholic Fascists)

    Cypriat War (Catholic Fascists)

    East Timor civil war

    Sri Lankan civil war

    Syria vs. Israel

    Kashmir civil war (Muslim fascists)
    Chechnya civil war

    Sudan

    Thirty Years War (Protestants VS. Catholics)

    WW1 – War of Christendom (37 Million dead)

    WW2 Nazi Anti-Semitism, “Gott Mit Uns” Axis powers – 50 Million dead

    Albigensian Crusade, 1208-49
    Algeria, 1992-
    Baha’is, 1848-54
    Bosnia, 1992-95
    Boxer Rebellion, 1899-1901

    Constantinian Empire & Christian Romans, 30-313 CE
    Croatia, 1991-92
    English Civil War, 1642-46
    Huguenot Wars, 1562-1598
    India, 1992-2002
    India: Suttee & Thugs
    Indo-Pakistani Partition, 1947

    Iran, Islamic Republic, 1979-

    Iraq, Shiites, 1991-92

    Jews, 1348

    Jonestown, 1978

    Lebanon 1860 / 1975-92
    Molucca Is., 1999-
    Mongolia, 1937-39

    Northern Ireland, 1974-98

    Russian pogroms 1905-06 / 1917-22

    St. Bartholemew Massacre, 1572

    Shang China, ca. 1300-1050 BCE

    Shimabara Revolt, Japan 1637-38

    Sikh uprising, India, 1984-91

    Spanish Inquisition, 1478-1834
    Tudor England

    Vietnam, 1800s

    Witch Hunts, 1400-1800
    Xhosa, 1857

    Arab Outbreak, 7th Century CE

    Arab-Israeli Wars, 1948-

    Al Qaeda, 1993-

    Dutch Revolt, 1566-1609

    Nigeria, 1990s, 2000s

    700,000,000 people dead because of religion.


    THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR:
    The Southern Baptist Church, FUNDED BY and founded by Southern Plantation Owners in 1837 argued for the HOLY SANCTITY OF SLAVERY based solely on the Bible. The Southern Baptist Church in its religious argument in favor of Slavery was a strong influence in turning the Southern argument for Secession into a religious matter.
    Once the ‘Divine’ is on your side, you will do any amount of evil.
    Yet God doesn’t appear to take a side in these battles.
    
____

    Now, please show me where Atheists like Voltaire, Carl Sagan, Mark Twain or Isaac Asimov ever burned a witch!

  48. Putin’s actions have nothing to do with equal rights in the US.

    This is a centuries-old pattern with religion and power.

    The Russian Orthodoxy is fear mongering to build its power base – typical religious fascism, which lines up perfectly with Putin’s power base.
    Jews will be the next target after homosexuals. Attacks on Non-religious art will follow.

    This will place the Anti-Islamic Russian Christian Orthodoxy in power shoring up Putin to get busy snuffing out some Muslims. Putin’s growing concerns are the spillover from a more militantly Islamized Syria and emerging aggressions from Islamic challenges in the far east.

    Religion is the tinder and the tinder is very dry. It always is.

  49. Ah, sorry Max. My “bring it” was directed to Edward. I don’t believe atheists, as a group, are more immoral or moral than any other group, so no debate with you there.

  50. For another version of this, a thoroughly documented version, see John L. Lewis’s book, “The Global War on Christians (ISBN 978-0-7704-3735-0. If a library near you doesn’t have it, ask about a loaner from some out-of-district library.)

    Tom.

  51. Jesus affirmed a gay couple, Frank, I’ve pointed that out to you more than once before. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

    While I’m pretty sure your Westboro Baptist Church doesn’t recognize that part of the Bible, Frank, most other churches do. These denominations will marry same gender couples in 18 US States and the District of Columbia: Affirming Pentecostal Church International, Alliance of Christian Churches, Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries, The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists, Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), Community of Christ, Conservative Judaism, Ecumenical Catholic Church, Ecumenical Catholic Communion, The Episcopal Church, Evangelical Anglican Church In America, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals, Inclusive Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Community Church, Old Catholic Church, Progressive Christian Alliance, Reconciling Pentecostals International, Reconstructionist Judaism, Reform Judaism, Reformed Anglican Catholic Church, Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), Unitarian Universalist Church, United Church of Christ, Unity Church…

  52. Also the same word used for son, daughter, child, and servant–such as Jairus’ 12-year-old daughter, and Christ Himself as the “pais” of God. BTW, how exactly does the son of God become His Father’s “same-sex lover?”

  53. Servant equaling concubine is an easy translation. The Bible is full of master/slave relationship with sexual components. Its telling you put of the strawman that pais referred to Jesus and not the man he healed in the story. Very dishonest on your part.

  54. What do you mean “dishonest?” Jesus is called the “pais” of God in Matt. 12:18, Acts 3:13, Acts 3:26, Acts 4:27, and Acts 4:30. The 12-year-old Jesus is also called a “pais” in the passage about the boy Jesus and the teachers in the Temple. (Luke 2). David, moreover, is called God’s “pais” in Luke 1:69 and Acts 4:25. To insist upon a “gay” interpretation of the word in the absence of any evidence that this is warranted is to venture into some highly unlikely extrapolations, to say the least.

  55. JESUS MY HAVE BEEN A HOMOSEXUAL

    Ummm….Jesus approves of homosexual relationships.
    If you read your Bible.

    “There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him…” (Mark 7:14-16)

    Mark also describes how one of Jesus’ followers was scantily dressed when the religious police arrived. He had a cloth cast on his naked body “wearing nothing but a linen garment.” (Mark 14:51-52)
    When the police tried to seize him, they were able to grab only his cloth; the man ran away naked.

    Reverend Peter Murphy wrote: “We don’t know from the sources what really was going on, but we do know that something was very peculiar between Jesus and young men.

    Jesus is described as seeing an unidentified man: “the disciple standing by, whom he loved.” Again this particular disciple is identified as “the” disciple who Jesus loved. Again, not the common love he had for all of his disciples but a VERY special love. (John 19:26-28)

  56. True, there is nothing “without” that can defile…but if you read the remainder of the passage you will of course see that sexual immorality is not “from without” but proceeds from the heart and therefore defiles.

  57. @SHAWNIE,

    JESUS DIDN’T HAVE A BRAIN

    “The heart” is all Jesus could talk about because primitive people had no idea what the BRAIN did!

    The brain (as we call it today) was just strange pinkish head innards!
    The heart was a clearly the functioning organ (heartbeat) of the human body and by spreading blood to the rest of the body it literally spread LIFE outward. Primitive people therefore put an enormous amount of superstitious beliefs on “the heart”.

    Of course we know now that “The HEART” is not ‘the brain’ of the person. So poor Jesus who didn’t know better, says the mouth is talking thanks to the heart and what comes from the mouth comes from the heart.

    The tautology of misunderstandings and superstitions about blood, hearts, and blood sacrifice continue from there!

    It is ridiculous, primitive NONSENSE.

  58. As an Athiest I read your words “sexual immorality” and they mean something completely different than what they meant when I was a believer years ago.

    When I was a believer the only kind of sex that was “morally correct” was the missionary position, between husband and wife WITHOUT CONTRACEPTION. Everything else was immoral.

    Now, to me, the only IMMORAL sex is rape, sex with children (which is always rape) and anything else that is non-consensual. Yet ALL OF THAT is perfectly fine with God as he recommends all of it repeatedly.

    Really is mind-bending. Religion is a joke.

  59. Again, what concerns me here is not YOUR opinion of what is moral and immoral but what the biblical position on it is, which others here are desperately trying to misrepresent. Everyone is free to repudiate it honestly, but trying to do so by monkeying with the scripture itself is simply the coward’s way out.

  60. If you already know that persecuting someone for being gay is wrong, based not on holy scripture but your own humanity, the entire project of searching scripture for the “biblical position” is moot.

    YOU WILL FIND EXACTLY what you are looking for whether you are Catholic, Lutheran or Pentecostal. That is my point.

    “Monkeying with scripture” has already been done for you over 2000 years by other writers who wanted to cover all the bases. Yet because of ‘faith’ you grant it an Authority it does not deserve.

    A book which says “Cigarettes Kill” and “Cigarettes are Safe” at the same time is not an authority on Cigarettes – or anything else.

  61. “Heart” is badly misused by Jesus because of his ignorance of the brain as well as the heart. Today it is just a wobbly, useless euphemism open to abuse.

    Three examples:
    “You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out that which fills the heart!” – (Matthew 12:34)
    Here Jesus says flatly some people are evil by “the heart” as if this cannot be changed. The ‘fundamental permanent condition’ is the literal evil heart.

    “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” (Proverbs 4:23)
    ‘Heart’ means “integrity” as in “guard your integrity” as it is fragile.

    “This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.” (Mark 7:6)
    Here ‘heart’ seems to mean ‘trust’ and ‘obedience’.

    But “Heart” cannot mean ALL of these things.
    They are deeply contradictory:

    “Integrity” requires honest pursuit of the truth, readiness to question.
    “Obedience” forfeits Integrity to a higher authority.
    “Permanent condition” obviates Integrity and fragility.

    Whatever Jesus thought he meant to say….is lost.

  62. Are you deliberately trying to be obtuse? Jesus used the “heart” in the same sense we do, metaphorically as the center of our individual characters, who we really are, just as the physical heart is the center of body, and He distinguished heart from mind. He did not have the heart and brain “confused” in any way.

    “…based not on holy scripture but your own humanity…”

    Our own “humanity” tells us little more than to look out for ourselves and our own. It is scripture, both directly and indirectly through its influence on our culture, that commands us to see human value equal to our own in everyone, no matter their origin or identification. However, that is of course not the same as saying that every human behavior is to be equally valued and approved, which is why the biblical position will never be moot.

  63. @ICG,

    you said, “Christianity is, in essence, to save man from many of the wrongs that were natural to him and make him better.”

    Ask a Jewish person how well that has worked out.
    The Christian slogan “Gott Mit Uns” (God With Us) was on every Nazi beltbuckle.

    I think it is fair to say that 30% of Jesus’ moral teachings might improve people.

    But once you claim Jesus is ‘Lord’ you must embrace the other 70% of his words which are full of insidious nonsense. And it just leads to Hell on earth:

    “Bring to me those who would not have me as their king and execute them in front of me.” Jesus (Luke 19:27)

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