Commissioners and advisory delegates broke out into small groups to discuss marriage and Middle East issues during the 221st Presbyterian Church (USA) General Assembly in Detroit, Mich., on June 19. In a 76-24 percent vote, the assembly moved to allow its clergy to perform same-sex unions in states where gay marriage is legal.

Commissioners and advisory delegates broke out into small groups to discuss marriage and Middle East issues during the 221st Presbyterian Church (USA) General Assembly in Detroit, Mich., on June 19. In a 76-24 percent vote, the assembly moved to allow its clergy to perform same-sex unions in states where gay marriage is legal. RNS photo courtesy Danny Bolin via PC(USA)

Editor’s Note: This story was revised on June 24 to reflect the correct 61-39 percent vote tally. 

(RNS) The Presbyterian Church (USA) voted Thursday (June 19) to allow gay and lesbian weddings within the church, making it among the largest Christian denominations to take an embracing step toward same-sex marriage.

By a 61-39 percent vote, the General Assembly of the 1.8 million-member PCUSA voted to allow pastors to perform gay marriages in states where they are legal. Delegates, meeting in Detroit this week, also approved new language about marriage in the church’s Book of Order, or constitution, altering references to “a man and woman” to “two persons.”

This change will not become church law until a majority of the 172 regional presbyteries vote to ratify the new language. But given the lopsided vote, approval is expected.

Gay rights activists within the church rejoiced at their victory, which was remarkable for its margin of victory after multiple years of razor-thin defeats.

“This vote is an answer to many prayers for the church to recognize love between committed same-sex couples,” said Alex McNeill, executive director of More Light Presbyterians, a group that has led the fight for gay marriage within the church.

The vote came after an emotional but polite debate in which opponents of the motion said it conflicted with Scripture and would cause Presbyterian churches abroad to break relations with the PCUSA.

The Presbyterian Lay Committee, which opposes gay marriage, urged congregations to launch a financial boycott out of protest.

“The Presbyterian Lay Committee mourns these actions and calls on all Presbyterians to resist and protest them,” the group said in a statement. ” … You should refuse to fund the General Assembly, your synod, your presbytery and even your local church if those bodies have not explicitly and publicly repudiated these unbiblical actions.”

“God will not be mocked,” the statement continued, “and those who substitute their own felt desires for God’s unchangeable Truth will not be found guiltless before a holy God.”

Under the new rules, pastors who do not want to preside over gay weddings are not obligated to, and the change applies only in the 19 states and the District of Columbia where same-sex civil marriage is legal.

Members of Rensselaerville Presbyterian Church show their support for the LGBTQ community at the Capital Pride Parade in 2007. The Presbyterian Church (USA) voted Thursday (June 19) to allow clergy to officiate same-sex couples' marriage ceremonies, part of a move to unify church policy after a flurry of states legalized gay marriage.

Members of Rensselaerville Presbyterian Church show their support for the LGBTQ community at the Capital Pride Parade in 2007. The Presbyterian Church (USA) voted Thursday (June 19) to allow clergy to officiate same-sex couples’ marriage ceremonies, part of a move to unify church policy after a flurry of states legalized gay marriage. Creative Commons image by Selbe B

The church has long grappled with the issue, which came to a head at the last General Assembly, in 2012, when a similar resolution allowing for gay marriage lost 338-308. Since then, the church’s decades-long decline in membership  — it has lost 37 percent of its membership since 1992 — has continued. These losses have been led by conservative-leaning congregations that defected over what they lamented as the church’s embrace of more liberal values.

Those defections — many to smaller and more conservative Presbyterian denominations — made it more likely that the General Assembly would approve a gay marriage resolution this year.

Some who voted in favor of the gay marriage resolution said they hoped it would draw people to the church.

“I fear that our church brand is in jeopardy,” said church member and public relations professional Margaret Blankers to the General Assembly. “Some question the relevance of a church they see is not living up to its reputation for fairness. Do we really want to be known for not accepting and embracing our LGBT brothers and sisters?”

The General Assembly’s vote reflects change in the nation, where in rapid succession during the past year, judges have struck down laws prohibiting same-sex marriage. And a steady stream of opinion polls shows Americans’ approval of gay marriage has risen dramatically in the past few years, to around 55 percent today.

But even against this backdrop, the General Assembly’s vote stands out as a church adapting its policy to fit a rapidly shifting culture even as most other Christian denominations have resisted.

The nation’s largest churches — Roman Catholic, Southern Baptist, Mormon, United Methodist and most evangelical churches — recognize marriage only as between a man and a woman, though many Methodists are pushing for a change. The Episcopal Church, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and the United Church of Christ all allow same-sex marriage.

KRE/MG END MARKOE

213 Comments

  1. CarrotCakeMan

    What wonderful news!

    And it’s really too late for anti-gays to claim Scripture urges Christians to attack loving, committed same gender American couples. Jesus affirmed a gay couple. Read Matthew 8:5-13 and Luke 7:1-10. Many of us are familiar with the Gospel story where Jesus healed the servant of a Roman centurion. In the original Greek, the word that the Roman centurion uses in this passage to describe the sick man – pais – is the same word used in ancient Greek to refer to a same-gender partner.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Any of the denominations I listed below will be happy to point out the errors of anti-gay misinterpretations of the Bible. Please contact them directly through their websites.

        • Ducking out the side window regarding Steve’s request, right CCM?

          Well, please take all those PCP-overdosed Presbyterians with you as you depart; they have truly lost their minds, and apparently whatever was left of their souls as well.

          They have collectively proven that they love Hell more than they love Heaven. (And they WILL get their wish!!) So I urge all remaining Bible-believing Presbyterians to LEAVE that sinking ship immediately. Just get out of there.

          Meanwhile, you might want to consider this. Your false and worthless claim about “pais” has been attempted by other revisionists, AND refuted, AND destroyed, more than once.

          And it can continue to be refuted/destroyed ad infinitum. Just a matter of Googling, nothing more. Example:

          http://www.dennyburk.com/did-jesus-affirm-a-gay-couple/

          • JesusChristTheFatherofGays

            Jesus loved cock and you know it. Your savior gave footjobs as he squealed with pleasure when the gooey man cream dripped onto his ankles. In romans 25.856 he recounts “Oh lord my father please give me more jizz in my mouth for i love the taste and then me and my boyfriend will go furniture shopping. Christopher lowell is DA BESSSST.

          • Stephen Smith

            Well so much for maintaining a Christian Spirit in this conversation. What a terrible non witness to the God and our Lord of love. Seems to me we can, at least conduct the conversation in the spirit of love. Too bad. I feel it breaks God’s heart when this is the best we can do, at least in our conversation. I know it breaks my heart. May God have mercy on us all.

    • no it’s not that’s only a POSSIBLE meaning. it could also mean son or an actual servant. the bible says homosexuality is an abomination why then would any homosexual couples be affirmed in God/Christ?

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Modern Biblical scholars have proven the Bible was intentionally mistranslated relatively recently in order to provide “Biblical cover” for then-rising levels of homophobia. For example, the word “homosexual” didn’t even exist until 1870. Many major Christian and Jewish denominations condemn misusing the hate-based mistranslations to attack their fellow Americans and are marrying same gender American couples now. About 400 years ago, a group of religious authorities (sanctioned by King James I of England), secretly manipulated the English version of the Bible to reflect their own heterosexual attitude; they opposed the King kissing other men in public. But in revised versions, religious authorities re-defined the Greek word “arsenokoites” of 1 Corinthians 6:9. The most accurate translation, abusers of themselves with mankind [KJV], was pretty vague. Nevertheless, they replaced this vague 5-worded text with the not so vague and purposely targeted 1-word text, “homosexual(s).” Either way you cut it, this text does not describe loving, committed same gender couples. This campaign gave those who were looking for a reason to justify their own homophobia a license to openly express their bigotry.

          • Chris:

            LOL. Very witty! Tell CCM that Jesus set the record straight when He replied, ‘at the beginning the Creator made them male and female’ and that’s who God joins together to create 1 flesh. Unless of course Jesus was conspiring with the Pharisees to create the Presbyterian denomination in Matthew’s record around 19:4.

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Since when is “Jesus supported mixed-sex marriage” supposed to mean Jesus didn’t do what the Bible said he did for the same gender couple?

          • CCM:

            Jesus doesn’t contradict Himself! He was crystal clear on how the Creator created and who was created for whom. Stop trying to twist some Greek word around your ambition and listen to how Jesus describes the purpose of creating 2 sexes. AGAIN: Matthew 19:4-6

          • CarrotCakeMan

            You can repeat that lie all you like, but the facts are clear. Jesus affirmed a same gender couple.

        • Modern Scholars wow! The sad truth is my friend, Jesus was quick to point out those who claim to be scholars but are nothing more than false prophets who will die and go to hell along with many who sit in the church that claim to be born again. (Mt.7:15-26). You may argue the Gr. word “arsenokoites” based on modern scholars, but it does not change what the word means.

          A careful study of the word used by Paul is just a compound word that describe two words used in the LXX concerning Lev.18:22 and 20:13. The words arsenos ( male) and the word Koiten (lie with sexually or to have intercourse) shows that Paul relied on the Septuagint in reference to 1 Cor.6:9. His argument is clear and he knows that God hates this kind of act. (Ro.1:18-28).

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Many major denominations agree with the interpretation I posted, and they aren’t concerned with the rantings of anonymous posters.

          • Actually what is meant by “modern scholars” is only John Boswell, an unfortunate case who spent his life trying to reconcile his own homosexuality with Catholicism. Every one of the arguments for accepting same-sex behavior into the church was fabricated by him, and most of those who use neither know this nor care. They only know what they “wanna,” and repeat the arguments ad infinitum in hopes of others being ignorant enough to buy them.

      • Actually, the Bible only says homosexual men are an abomination – lesbians are not mentioned. It was written by men who considered women 2nd class citizens who were honored to love men. The Bible also says to stone your children if they dishonor you. Clearly we aren’t living the letter of that law, otherwise 80% of the current children in the USA would have been stoned for being rude and entitled monsters.

        • The claim of any fundamentalist that they are living to the strict letter of the entire Bible is bullcrap. Its said to make one feel better and “holier than thou” towards those they want to feel superior to. They all feel like they are the only arbiters of what the scripture means and it always goes according to their predispositions. As if someone invested them with the authority to determine who is a “real” Christian, and that anyone has to take them seriously on the subject.

          In reality everyone who has religious belief adjusts and chooses which parts of the scriptures they accept according to their conscience. Fundamentalists are just less honest about it. Less honest about most things actually.

        • The Bible is clear friend about lesbians. (Ro.1:26-27). God hates those who practice this kind of act. It is clear that he calls those who commit such an act Reprobates. (Ro.1:28).

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Once again, “Romans” is not the words of Jesus, but of someone who never met Him.

          • Actually Romans is neither Jesus nor clear about gays in a modern sense. The passage refers to the sin of idolatry first and foremost. God turns the Romans gay in punishment for worshiping other gods.

            The sin of that passage is the sin of polytheism. It is akin to saying the story of Noah is all about why shipbuilding is such a noble act.

    • CarrotCakeMan you are wrong. Stop spreading untruth.
      PAIS:
      Definition: (a) a male child, boy, (b) a male slave, servant; thus: a servant of God, especially as a title of the Messiah, (c) a female child, girl.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Sad to say, we can expect more outlandish hate speech and attacks from the few remaining anti-gays as, one by one, they recognize that their anti-gay agenda was destroyed by the American People. However, whining anonymously on an online forum such as this is the sum total of what they can do now. No court of law will even give them a hearing, now that the US Supreme Court has ruled anti-gays have “no standing” to appeal their daily defeats in court.

          • Americans voted no. Judges backed by gay groups were pressured by their private counsel to overturn the laws people actually got to have say in.

            Broad support is an illusion. Yet you will still claim it.

          • Wait a minute there. Did you just say “…whining **anonymously on an online forum**”?

            Why would an anti-biblical guy who calls himself “Carrot Cake Man” ever complain about ANYBODY ELSE choosing to post anonymously on an online forum ??

          • EVERY discriminatory law in existence was voted in by the majority. SFW? This is why we have a Constitution. To keep people from voting away the rights and liberties of others. Every civil rights action is done by a minority.

            The problem people like yourself have is that you don’t have a single rational or secular argument which can hold up in a court. This is why NOM and their pals are so desperately afraid of appealing these decisions to the Supreme Court. The last thing they want is a nationwide ruling striking down ever gay marriage ban on the grounds of Equal protection under the law.

          • CarrotCakeMan

            It’s sad to see anti-gays give the US Constitution and the Proper Rule Of Law the finger, but, as we can see, that won’t cause federal courts to shirk their duty as written in the US Constitution.

          • DavidMcAliley213

            I find it interesting that you rail against people “whining anonymously on an online forum” when you are clearly hiding behind the same anonymity.

            1 Corinthians 6: 9-10
            Genesis 19
            Leviticus 18:22
            Leviticus 20:13
            Romans 1: 26-27

            You are focusing on one possible translation for one word in one scripture passage to justify your views. The very narrowness of your attempted interpretation reveals the dishonesty inherent in it.

            I do not know the mind of God, and no man does. Therefore, I don’t know how God looks on homosexuality, and, to be honest, neither do you. All I know is what the scripture says. And the fact that you can stretch and contort the interpretation of one word in one passage does not indicate the overall message behind the scripture as a whole.

            I will pray for you, carrotcakeman. Whoever you are.

        • Great example. So is polygamy morally wrong? Based on the criteria for the current “acceptance” of homosexual marriage, I saw no.

          Nor would group marriage.
          Nor would marriage with predetermined expiration dates.
          Nor revolving marriage partners.

          The field is wide open if the same criteria is used to define the boundaries of the argument.

          • The problem is you are using the wrong criteria for marriage rights.

            No polygamy is not morally wrong at all. It is just a righteous nightmare to implement with our laws pertaining to marriage. Something which is completely untrue for gay marriage.

            Unless the polygamists can draft new laws which touch upon all marriage rights in a way which is fair, rational and easy to implement, we don’t have to make it legal.

            The proper criteria is that a union will be OK as long as there are no rational and secular reasons not to do it. The only one of your suggestions which might pass muster is the expiration date. I haven’t seen people lobbying for it, so who knows?

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Americans ALL know what “polygamy” really means. We learned it during the trial of the leader of the vast majority of the “polygamists” in America, Warren Jeffs, who is now in prison for criminal child sexual assault. Jeffs pretended to “marry” some barely post-pubescent girl. In the morning, after he had his “fun,” he bundled these children off to the welfare office. LEGAL MARRIAGE would have impeded his welfare scam.

            Anti-gays know there is NO real comparison between loving, committed same gender American couples and the crimes of criminal child sexual assault and welfare fraud, they just repeat that LIE again and again in an attempt to demean, demonize and dehumanize loving, committed same gender American couples.

            Fail…

          • DavidMcAliley213

            The answer to your question is actually much more clear than you are making it out to be. No where in the Bible, that I know of, is polygamy classified or characterized as an abomination or a sin against God. It is, rather, characterized as morally dangerous behavior because it tends to tempt people into sexually immoral behavior.

            Polygamy was, and in some cultures still is, an accepted social practice. But, in each of these cases, all of the parties in the marriage compact are of legal age. The “Warren Jeffs” issue that Carrotcakeman raises is really simply a straw man and red herring all rolled into one. No one here, or anywhere else that I know of, is advocating for child molestation in any way. To say that we are is to be both dishonest and disingenuous.

            Polygamy, in and of itself, is not a moral sin, as I understand it. That being said, why on earth would anyone want more than one wife/husband?

    • Your interpretation of scripture is nothing but Gay Christian propaganda with absolutely no Church history nor credible ancient Greek scholarship credibility. That word has NOTHING to with homosexual couple! It was used to refer to close dear friends. Furthermore, “Most commentators understand this word to be in reference to a child servant or a servant who is younger than an adult. In fact, the word “child” is the main definition given in the standard language dictionaries for pais. Additionally, Luke uses pais to describe Israel as God’s servant in Luke 1:54 and David being the Lord’s servant in Luke 1:69. Surely our homosexual apologists wouldn’t conclude there was a homosexual relationship between the Lord and Israel or David? ” Actually, they probably would try, however ludicrous this would be.

      Good news? Atrocious news. The so called Presbyterian Church is just one more religious body that has given up any pretense of standing by the Word of God in favor of Democratic gay politics under fear of being labeled by “homophobic” by the gay activist shock troops!

      Im sorry thats a little harsh. I know there are many well meaning people who simply want to demonstrate their love and acceptance of everyone. Thats great. But that does not require rejection of the Word of God, and in fact it is less charitable to reject the Truth in favor appearing accepting. The most charitable and most Christian act is to love with full acknowledgement of everyone’s full human dignity while still preaching on the nature of our sin, including homosexual sex. Apparently the Presbyterian Church USA doesnt have the stomach or theological fortitude to offer the most Christian act of love.

      Calvin and the other Reformers must be turning over in their graves.

      • Don’t worry about being harsh. There is nothing left. And if they want to censor your speech, outlaw it, or ostracize you they will whether you are harsh or not. And they will do so in the name of human freedom.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          It’s all too clear anti-gays never worry about how hateful and hurtful they are. Fortunately, this habit anti-gays have of attacking anyone and everyone who refuses to help them hurt LGBT Americans has repulsed the majority of Americans and caused us to defeat the anti-gay agenda.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        mickey, you’re entitled to promote the beliefs of the Westboro Baptist Church, but what you might not be ready to accept is Americans are also entitled to reject such false teachings, and they have Jesus’ kind act as proof they are correct.

      • Mickey, which is it church history or Calvin heterodoxy? He wasn’t an apostle and his views where unknown to Christendom before his time.

        But, if you can provide examples of pre-Reformation Christians practicing Calvinistic dogma, please do and prove me wrong.

      • Sadly – yet joyfully – this I believe is happening or rather being allowed to happen as we draw closer to the end. While many will dismiss this comment as standard ‘the world is ending’ rhetoric, this speaks to…
        ‘And in those days, many will turn away from the faith…’ It additionally aligns with false teaching, false prophets, etc. The whole purpose of marriage is to create families – be fruitful and multiply – which is obviously impossible in a homosexual union. Some of you reading this know, this is a major step in prophecy simply being fulfilled as we approach the end – be that tomorrow or 200 years from now, the moral decay from within and the ultimate downfall of our society is absolutely part of His plan.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Anti-gays are the ones promoting “moral decay.” They are the ones who seek to HURT other people they don’t know and who have never harmed anti-gays in any way whatsoever.

    • But if we understand all the transmissions bible writings went through for centuries, the originals never seen by those who ordered the so-called canon, it becomes quite meaningless to fuss over a single Greek or Roman word.

      The spirit of Jesus is what counts–“And the greatest of these is charity.”

      It must also be realized that Jesus was a man of his time, his culture, and his Jewish religion that had evolved from ancient mythology. It seems meaningless to attempt to parse individual words, even verses and books of the bible. It is the overall spirit that matters. And Presbyterians are the latest to see the light of that spirit.

      Like all human endeavors, religion has spirit, and that spirit can be evolve for good or for evil. A study of the history of religion certainly shows both good and evil.

    • If you are going to claim the Roman Centurion (leader of 1000) had a homosexual relationship with his servant (slave) and claim Jesus sanctioned this then you are arguing for sanctioning a sexual relationship imposed by power as the centurion had absolute authority over this slave.

      • These gay apologists don’t care about that “forced” aspect. Forced or unforced, rape or consenting, as long as it’s just plain “GAY”, they’re happy to make it look like Jesus approves of the relationship.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Enjoy your sexual fantasies, boys, just don’t expect normal, non-homophobic Americans to base our actions on your sexual fantasies.

          Readers who would like to see the scientific evidence for why anti-gay posters are so obsessed with what they IMAGINE same gender couples do in private should Google “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

    • Straw man argument. Christians do not claim scripture urges “anti-gays” to “attack” same sex couples. Come up with a real argument for just once in your dishonest propaganda driven existence.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Well, no, no real Christian does that, Brian, anti-gays do that, but anti-gays do try to drag all Christians down to their level, as you yourself demonstrated.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      Sad to say, we know why “Tom” expresses his obsession with “gay sex” here:

      “Homophobia is apparently associated with homosexual arousal that the homophobic individual is either unaware of or denies.”

      http://www.landman-psychology.Com/Homophobia%20Associated%20with%20Homosexual%20Arousal.pdf

      http://psycnet.apa.Org/journals/abn/105/3/440/

    • CarrotCakeMan

      An agency of the federal government, the National Institutes of Health, publishes a supporting study:

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.Gov/pubmed/8772014

      Here’s a video that illustrates that study:

      http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=AEuDDvqYbVw

      How about a You-tube SONG that explains this?

      http://www.youtube.Com/watch?v=1CQg9f7z9eg&feature=youtu.be

    • CarrotCakeMan

      “to accommodate the perverse desires of a selfish few.”

      I understand that anti-gays are disturbed individuals, but that doesn’t mean that every normal, non-homophobic American needs to accommodate their sickening desire to hurt LGBT Americans. While anti-gays have every right to envelope themselves in their swirling vortex of homophobia, they have NO right to misuse their mental disorder to force their nasty desires onto other Americans.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      Once again, we know why you are totally obsessed with “perversion”:

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/05/05/the-christian-rights-gay-problem.html

      “In 1996, three researchers from the University of Georgia published a study in the Journal of Abnormal Psychology about the links between homophobia and homosexual arousal. The authors, Henry E. Adams, Lester W. Wright, Jr., and Bethany A. Lohr, started with 35 straight men identified as homophobic and 29 straight men that were not. Both groups were shown heterosexual, lesbian and gay male porn while their erectile responses were measured. “Only the homophobic men showed an increase in penile erection to male homosexual stimuli,” reported the researchers.

      It was empirical evidence for a theory long popular among psychoanalysts: that those most hostile to gay people are often driven by terror and shame about their own desires.”

    • Are you serious Tom Jefferson? Certain Heterosexuals are the ones responsible for the down fall of the family and marriage. You have been practicing this life style for thousands and years and look at church, and society you have created. Broken homes, prison systems full to the windows, child abuse, abuse of animals, etc. Don’t blame gays for what you all have created. We are not a threat to your families, we trying to build familys that love and accept all people. We are not called to be the judges of anyone.

    • Mat 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him, 6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented. 7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him. 8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed. 9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

      I don’t see any evidence that either the centurion or his servant were ‘gay’. How do you twist that passage to say that they were a ‘gay couple’ that Jesus affirmed?

    • This is wonderful. Let the haters continue to pick and choose from Scripture that which makes them personally comfortable–they’ve been doing it for centuries. The rest of us will be guided by love and the true Spirit of God’s word.

      You call the Presbyterian Church a sinking ship? I don’t think so. We’ll continue to watch as other repressive denominations continue to hemorrhage members until they realize no one wants to be a part of a hateful church.

  2. Hmm. So what specifically then do good little Presbyterians consider morally wrong? Said another way, what action can they engage in that crosses the doctrine line and prompts the church leaders to say its not becoming of a Presbyterian member?

    Porn?
    Gay porn?
    How bout married gay Presbyterian members consuming any variety of porn? Is that ok for them since they are gay? How bout straight married members?

    IMO, when a church is only aligned with secular law in terms of defining its doctrine, it not a church. Not a religion. As they are no different from surrounding society. Its the litmus test to tell what is a meaningless gathering of group thinkers versus a truly devote group of critical thinkers.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      It’s so sad to see these vicious attacks on the good Americans of the PCUSA. I doubt they will concern themselves with the wild claims and online hate speech.

          • CarrotCakeMan

            I’m not here to answer some trick question from an anti-gay desperately trying to revive his failed anti-gay agenda, but rather to debunk the deceptions of that anti-gay agenda.

        • “Stand for everything and you stand for nothing”

          That is nonsense.
          The Humanitarian stands for being kind to other humans and letting humans do anything that does not hurt anyone else.

          You have been indoctrinated into a lie which says Gay people are bad …. for some reason.
          But there is no reason to say it and there is no reason to think it.

        • LIes Nats: You write as if “liberal” is a dirty word. Compared to his opposition, especially the opposition that succeeded in getting Pilate to declare his crucifixion, Jesus was extremely “liberal.”

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Therein lies the crux of the comments from the anti-gays, gilhcan. Anti-gays have no more interest in religion except as a “skirt” to hide their criminal activities.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          How about you, Doc? You show us repeatedly your willingness to give Jesus the finger. Jesus said the second most important Commandment was to love your neighbor as yourself. Your habit of flinging vicious personal attacks at everyone who doesn’t share your extreme, obsessive hatred for LGBT Americans and desire to HURT LGBT Americans demonstrates your constant violation of that Commandment.

      • Good point. And the foremost of those two is to love God with all heart/soul/strength/mind, including His great creative design for the human race which Jesus told us about.

    • Wayne Parrish

      Very well said. Shall the church conform to society and risk loss of members (and income) or shall it conform to it’s best and only guide, the Bible?

  3. CarrotCakeMan

    PCUSA joins a fast-growing group of Welcoming and Affirming denominations. These denominations will marry same gender couples in 20 US States and the District of Columbia:

    Affirming Pentecostal Church International
    Alliance of Christian Churches
    Anointed Affirming Independent Ministries
    The Association of Welcoming and Affirming Baptists
    Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)
    Community of Christ
    Conservative Judaism
    Ecumenical Catholic Church
    Ecumenical Catholic Communion
    The Episcopal Church
    Evangelical Anglican Church In America
    Evangelical Lutheran Church in America
    Global Alliance of Affirming Apostolic Pentecostals
    Inclusive Orthodox Church
    Metropolitan Community Church
    Old Catholic Church
    Progressive Christian Alliance
    Reconciling Pentecostals International
    Reconstructionist Judaism
    Reform Judaism
    Reformed Anglican Catholic Church
    Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
    Unitarian Universalist Church
    United Church of Christ
    Unity Church

    If you’re looking for a source on the correct translation of “pais,” seek it from any of the Christian denominations marrying same gender couples in the US States where they are allowed to practice their Freedom Of Religion.

    • And all are no different that the secular society that surrounds them. Thus all are irrelevant as a disciplined religion. Now these are businesses, pure and simple. There is nothing distinguishing them from their neighbors. And they have a taxable cash flow.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        It’s so sad to see the vicious attacks on the growing number of Christian and Jewish denominations who are Welcoming and Affirming. Do you really expect them to align themselves with your Westboro Baptist Church based on hate speech posted anonymously?

        • You got nothing. All you do is post its sad, its sad, over and over. Your pathetic. Substance man. Post substance. Be interesting. Try an independent though and post it.

          WHY is it so sad? WHY is it hate? How are they religious now? How are they different. I’m giving you lots of opportunities here but your coming up braindead and fully soundbite worthy every time.

          • CarrotCakeMan

            Anti-gays routinely post vicious personal attacks when we disagree with their hate speech.

        • Sad, but expected. The Bible specifies that this type of idolatry and sin will be rampant near the end, just as they were in the “days of Noah” (Mt 24:37)

          And I know how the illiberals* on this site love to be Biblically educated:

          But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
          2 For men will be lovers of themselves,
          lovers of money,
          boasters,
          proud,
          blasphemers,
          disobedient to parents,
          unthankful,
          unholy,
          3 unloving,
          unforgiving,
          slanderers,
          without self-control,
          brutal,
          despisers of good,
          4 traitors,
          headstrong,
          haughty,
          lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
          5 having a form of godliness but denying its power.
          And from such people turn away!
          6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,
          7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

          from 2 Timothy 3. See if you can spot the PCUSA in there!

          *illiberals are the phony liberals who call themselves liberal and progressive, but hide a dark and controlling agenda including 1984-style thought-crime. Truly the opposite of what a liberal is supposed to be.

          Buy a gun while you can and learn how to use it. You may have to defend your 1st amendment right with the 2nd amendment right before too long.

          And for those who love to criticize the Bible because they find all sorts of sin in there, DUH! It’s a historical record of OUR failures. Note that even though God’s design for marriage is perverted by many in the story, all of the deviation is still heterosexual! NOBODY up until the last few years of hard and fast jamming of homosexual acceptance down our throats, no pun intended, thought that “same sex marriage” was even a possibility. Even the notoriously accepting Roman culture could figure that one out.

          And before you get all offended, as if you haven’t already. I don’t hate you. I love you, which is why you need to know you are in the WRONG. Remember, in the Bible it says “everyone did what was RIGHT in their own eyes”, just as today. Moral relativism will destroy objectivity. Perhaps it already has.

          • “lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God”

            I knew the Bible would mention me somewhere.

          • Actually, interestingly enough, there WAS one other time in history when same-sex marriage was practiced, according to the Midrash Rabbah Genesis. And that was the pre- Noahide times.

            Kind of lends a whole different kind of nuance to Jesus’ words about the last days: “and it shall be as in the days of Noah…marrying and giving in marriage…”

      • Perhaps these “businesses, pure and simple,” have a “taxable cash flow,” but they pay no taxes. We who are not part of them support them in many ways. Of course, neither does General Motors.

        Most unfortunately, our government has been allowed to ignore the First Amendment requirement to maintain separation between the state and churches. More and more, churches and their leaders presume they have a right as religious leaders to dictate government policy, as Hobby Lobby is now trying to do through our Catholic Supreme Court. And more and more our government leaders cave in to those church leaders. Jesus prayers at government meetings in Greece, NY.

        That is a violation of separation of church and state. Our justice system overlooks these violations of our Constitution.

    • Tamalyn Kralman

      Thank you, Carrotcake Man. I was going to mention that the author left the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) off the list of denominations that allow same sex marriages. But I see that you have found a much longer list!

    • nice list of churches that are all dying a slow death.

      They all have one thing in common – they abandoned God’s teachings to become of the world, not just in it.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        They aren’t the only denomination losing membership:

        NASHVILLE, Tenn. — The nation’s largest Protestant denomination saw membership decline for the seventh straight year in 2013, according to an annual report released Wednesday.

        The report by the Southern Baptist Convention’s publishing arm, Lifeway Christian Resources, puts total membership in the Nashville-based SBC at 15.7 million. That’s down from 15.9 million in 2012, a decrease of a little less than 1 percent.

        Weekly church attendance decreased more than 2 percent last year, falling to 5.8 million as a weekly average for the year.

        The report also notes a 1.5 percent decrease in the number of baptisms, falling to 310,368. Baptisms are an important measure for the denomination because of its strong commitment to evangelism.

        The convention has been concerned about the membership and baptism trends for several years. After 2012 saw a drop in baptisms of 5.5 percent, a task force was convened to study why. The group of pastors released their report earlier this month and recommendations included praying for a “spiritual awakening in our churches and our nation.”

        http://www.star-telegram.com/2014/05/28/5854811/southern-baptist-membership-declines.html?rh=1

      • CarrotCakeMan

        And:

        http://ncronline.org/node/3090

        “Surprisingly, no one at the national level is keeping precise track of the current number of closings. A spokesperson for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops said bishops are not required to report closings. Part of the difficulty in tracking such numbers derives from the fact that diocesan realignments can involve both closings and mergers. In fact, there are more parishes in existence today — 18,479 — than there were in 1965, when there were 17,637. But the current number is down considerably from 1995, when there were 19,331 parishes in existence, a drop of more than 850 over that period, according to figures compiled by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University in Washington.”

    • Sorry….but the world and most churches are turning from true scripture to be Politically correct, because it serves them well, financially. You can’t change what God has written to suit your purposes. Take a trip back through scripture that hasn’t been “re translated” to fit purposes of those wanting to do whatever they want without any restrictions. That is not our Holy God who does have a standard….and believe it or not….it’s to protect us. Sorry, the arguments against legitimate scripture does not stand.

  4. “the General Assembly’s vote stands out as a church adapting its policy to fit a rapidly shifting culture even as most other Christian denominations have resisted.”

    I think this statement stands reality on it’s head.
    Speaking as an American Baptist, our denomination was spiritually convicted by a change in opinion about slavery. Opposing slavery, we suffered a permanant schism, but who now would say that we were on the wrong side of history and justice?
    I applaud the courage of the PCUSA leaders and look forward to the day when American Baptists stand with you.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      Thank you for your support, Mr. Haas. I hope your denomination will come to understand soon that it’s simply immoral to try to HURT loving, committed same gender American couples the way the anti-gay sects are trying now.

      At least we have reason to believe anti-gays will never again be able to cook up one of their immoral, seditious anti-gay Hate Votes.

      • Here’s what I dont get. Obviously you can straighten me out. Gay sex between men, by its very mechanics, has the potential to cause tears or otherwise physically hurt the “receiver” as far as I understand it. So my doubt comes in as far as this is suppose to occur in a “loving” relarionship. How can you claim to love someone and do somthing potentially harmful to them at the same time?

        I know spouses hurt spouses all the time, parents to children, in various ways….but this is a known potential hazard each and every time a gay man recieves gay sex. How is this a loving act?

        • What a ridiculous attempt at misdirection. It is so inappropriate to question the mechanics of possible sexual contact between two people of any gender combination who want to get married. Would you ask a straight couple if they’re sexually compatible and if everything fits together well before you’d decide if they could get married? Of course not, because it’s none of your business!

        • Because, it doesn’t happen nearly as often as you think. Maternal death is far far more common.

          If anything, your position would only support lesbian sex.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Lies, just how much time a day do you fantasize about what loving, committed same gender couples do in private? You’ve mentioned your obsession with that several times in this thread.

      • Straw man argument. Christians do not claim scripture urges “anti-gays” to “attack” same sex couples. Come up with a real argument for just once in your dishonest propaganda driven existence.

    • For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3

    • And there it is. The glee from a liberal seeking only to destroy a religious worldview. You have no better motivation in your head other than destruction. Its clear. And everytime you say you are an activist in the name of humanity and human freedom, its a lie.

        • Do you really think I expect to receive an intersting, well thought out response from you at this point?

          They lead. You follow. Thats all you do.

          Makes for boring conversation on my part, and a littered blog.

          • CarrotCakeMan

            If you think this comment thread is littered, maybe you should stop posting the same debunked anti-gay lies again and again and again.

      • Christians have been destroying religious world views they didn’t like for a very long time. It is somewhat hypocritical to be concerned now that others are doing to you what you have done to them for two millennia.

      • Lies Nats: Just because some liberals do not subscribe to religion, does not mean they are out to destroy anyone else’s right to believe. No two liberals think alike any more than two so-called conservatives.

        There has never been a “religious worldview” except in the minds of individuals who hold such a view. And there is no agreement about those views. The history of religion wouldn’t be so littered with evil if that were true. Or does evil dominate religion?

        There are very few people who know enough about religion to form a “worldview” based on whatever religious beliefs they think they hold. Even the battling “believers” in the Middle East hold no common “worldview.”

        • Oh lord. Here cometh the liberal eager to inform those who believe and have made up their own minds that they do, in fact maintain a religious worldview….by telling them they are not educated enough to do so.

          How is the reason that people hate you not apparent to your own awareness? You absolutely hate any freedom that does not agree with your own and that statement you make above is again proof you say anything to support your side.

    • You’re right. The Presbyterians HAVE bitten the dust. They’ve effectively committed national suicide, and turned traitor on their own Bibles.

      Right now Larry, as an Atheist, YOU have 1000 times more credibility than the Presbyterians do. No joke. They’re done for.

  5. Good thing special interest judges we’re prompted by their backers to strick down laws in nearly every state that had em. The issue was brought to the polls and american society im general no. For a moment I alost believed we ruled ourselves and had the ability to collectively see through special interest “news” pieces and outreach programs.

    Alas, actual society failed on both counts. Money rules debate. Money rules “democracy”. Money rules law. Amazingly, no one in society actually works to produce new money. Yet those privileged enough to create it are hailed as kings, geniuses, visionaries and rule our society with it. If ever there was a truly “humanist” issue, it is money its rules and the form it takes.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      If you so hate our contry, Lies, why don’t you seek an emigrant visa to Russia? Their official church shares your homophobic fantasies. Their government actively attacks their LGBT citizens.

        • Currency, money, seems to be the real god of conservatives.

          How solid are beliefs, how religious are they, really, when one must consider emigration because his religious/economic beliefs seem to be in the minority.

          I think I hear God rattling and counting gold coins in heaven!

          • CarrotCakeMan

            I just wouldn’t call anti-gays “conservatives,” gilhcan, when anti-gays demonstrate they are disloyal to America.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Anti-gays routinely operate several sock puppets to create that false impression. Here’s the reality:

          “[A] record-high 59 percent say they support same-sex marriage, while 34 percent are opposed, the widest margin tracked in Post-ABC polling. Support for same-sex marriage has changed more rapidly than almost any social issue in the past decade. In a Post-ABC poll in March 2004, 38 percent said same-sex marriage should be legal, while 59 percent said it should not, the same percentage now in favor of allowing gays to marry. Nearly eight in 10 say that gays can parent as well as straight people, up from just below six in 10 in a 1996 Newsweek survey. Sixty-one percent support allowing gays to adopt a child, up from 49 percent in 2006 and 29 percent in a 1992 poll by Time magazine and CNN. More than twice as many people consider being gay as “just the way they are,” rather than something they chose.

          http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/support-for-same-sex-marriage-hits-new-high-half-say-constitution-guarantees-right/2014/03/04/f737e87e-a3e5-11e3-a5fa-55f0c77bf39c_story.html

    • Matthew Thompson

      Actually, gilhcan said nothing of the sort. All he said was that there was no single unifying world view, and that those who believe there is believe that because of their personal religous world view. Look around you, how many sects and denomination of the Abrihamic religions are there [these would be the religions of the jewish, christian, and muslim faiths]. This doesn’t even include the multitude of non Abrihamic religions.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      That’s correct, only not in the way you meant. Another major denomination has rejected the “Name-calling, invective, and twisting the clear intent of scripture” of anti-gay cults.

  6. I’m a PCUSA pastor (now retired), and I’m rejoicing … I now that some sisters and brothers are lamenting right now. Well, I’ve lamented plenty over the years as our church failed, as I see it, on this matter. After many such failures, I believe we have made some vital mid-course corrections. Clergy in states where Marriage Equality is the law can no officiate at a same-gender marriage without fear of ecclesiastical reprisal. Over the years, I didn’t leave even when my heart was heavy and I believed that the church was failing Christ. I have always practiced the Larger Loyalty that transcends the pain of the moment. Many of my conservative sisters and brothers exercise a loyalty to dogma that trumps loyalty to one another; in their hearts, they believe this is loyalty to Christ. But how can one love Christ and walk away, often with bitterness and denunciation, from one’s sisters and brothers. Tough questions, for sure, required by difficult times when the pull-of-the-past is at war with the pull-of-the-future.

    • You should give yourself more credit.
      You have a superior morality. You care about people more than supposed revelation.
      That alone is 100 times more moral than a preacher who recites Biblical nonsense to answer every question.

    • Make no mistake: Your church is failing Christ right this minute. There’s nothing left for PCUSA anymore — and perhaps nothing left for America itself, at this rate — except straightforward divine judgment.

      You vote for Sodom, then you get Sodom, then you get what Sodom got. One, two, three.

      (Granted, in various ways, we all fail Christ. But we’re NOT supposed to just jump into the stinking stopped-up TOILET, drinking big gulps, and then talk as if we’re doing God’s Will or something!)

      The Presbyterian Church in the USA, is done for. They’re gone. Dead in the water. Again, I urge all remaining Bible-believing Presbyterians to leave that sinking ship.

      PCUSA = Titanic. Get off the ship quick. Now.

  7. I know many same gender folks who are brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, moms, dads, friends and I know it is just part of who they are. I do not believe it’s a choice and neither do any of the medical associations. (Pediatric, Phychriatric, American Medical and lots more.). I’m sorry that there are people who act so self righteous and worry about what other people do. Those that I know in my personal life that are gay are very kind, loving, caring and community servers!

      • Stephen you are obviously are both hateful and ignorant. You have never met someone who is gay but know enough about them to despise them. You think they are icky, therefore they are not entitled to any kind of civil liberties or a sane existence. I get that your argument is not based on a religious position, it is just being a bigot.

    • Okay, so Cindy knows many gay people, and thinks the ones she knows are wonderful, and you accuse her of lying, based on YOUR experience of knowing “a few” who are reckless with promiscuity.

      Well, clearly, Cindy’s experiences being exposed to a variety of gay people are far outweighed by your biased exposure to 2 or 3 who apparently decided to open up about all their intimate exploits…to you.

      Cindy, thank you for the comment!

      • And thank Stephen for his comment also. His is just as “Real-Life” as Cindy’s.

        But the Bible’s comments trump all of our comments. Therefore, the Presbyterians have clearly destroyed themselves as a church. They have killed any remaining credibility they once had. They have spat in God’s face.

        PCUSA is no longer a church. Now, they are just a Hot Mess.

      • Thanks, Jeff. After looking through all of these comments I am convinced that those who are so hateful and snarky are afraid of something. Fear is their guiding star. As older people die off and the next generation takes over change will occur.

        • CarrotCakeMan

          You’re correct about just how disturbed anti-gays are, Cindy. Psychologists identified homophobia as a mental illness and published their results in the Journal of the National Institutes of Health in 1953. Homophobia is the irrational fear, disgust, or hatred of gays, lesbians, and/or bisexual people, or of homosexual feelings in oneself. It refers to the discomfort one feels with any behavior, belief, or attitude (in self or others) that does not conform to traditional sex role stereotypes. Homophobia exhibits itself in the fear of knowing, befriending, or associating with gays, lesbians, or bisexual people; fear of being perceived as gay or lesbian; and/or fear of stepping out of accepted gender role behavior. Psychologists report that the most commonly observed symptom of the mental disorder homophobia is cognitive dissonance, an inability of those so afflicted to accept documentation that contradicts their deep-seated phobia and hatred of LGBT Americans.

          • If one is truly walking as Jesus did hate will not abide in him, rather he will seek to preach the gospel to all desiring that all will come to know him. Correction is a good thing and by his Holy word we are corrected. I love gay people do I love sin.. no because it leads to death. Just as idolatry, adultery, covetousness, are sin so is the alliance with the unnatural the lack of self control sin as well. Pursue Jesus and he will open your mind to the truth and out of the deception which consumes the world. Jesus came to bring life and bring it more abundantly he is the author of Peace, Tranquility, Love, Harmony, Joy and Self control. When the world promotes itself it promotes death When the gospel of Jesus Christ is preached eternal life is promoted.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      You’re correct, Cindy. A quick search on Scholar.google.com on the phrase Physiological Basis of Homosexuality turns up over 26,000 articles, the vast majority supporting the biological basis of same sex attraction.

      http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=physiological+cause+of+homosexuality&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C21&as_sdtp=

        • CarrotCakeMan

          Anti-gays make these desperate, obviously FALSE comparisons of loving, committed same gender American couples to insects in a shameful, immoral attempt to demean, demonize and dehumanize LGBT Americans.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      Sexual orientation, whether gay, bisexual or non-gay, has been shown by science to be inborn and unchangeable, and psychologists have shown being gay or lesbian is just as healthy and “normal” as being non-gay. Here are just 14 of tens of thousands of respected websites (and a citation from Fox News for the doubters) that document this:

      http://www-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
      http://www.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
      http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
      http://www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html

      (more)

    • CarrotCakeMan

      More:

      http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/06/26/brothers=gay.html
      http://www.medpagetoday.com/OBGYN/Pregnancy/3641
      http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/06/080617151845.htm
      http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/story?section=news/local&id=6209976
      http://www.apa.org/topics/sorientation.html

  8. ROFL….whats the article about? the presbs stopped being a legitimate church 70 years ago, there is no surprise here. I swear to god, mark my word, within 50 years they will allow animals into the clergy. Nothing to see hear, not a surprise, changes nothing. Depraved people have always had depraved institutions to support them.

    • How to you expect to debate any issue with the expectation of a reasonable outcome by reducing yourself to such inane comments as animal clergy?

      That kind of thought or writing is real depravity. It is not argument, it is nonsense.

      • Well for starters I sincerely believe they will do it, I would bet my savings on it. There is no debate there is only historical truths that have stood the test of time. There is no argument, I won before I opening my keyboard.

        Mark my words, animal clergy is coming to these groups.

      • CarrotCakeMan

        Please don’t attempt to “project” your own fantasies onto loving, committed same gender American couples, Mr. Newmiller. Wasn’t comparing LGBT Americans to “insects eating insects” lurid enough? We got it, Mr. Newmiller, you, too, fantasize about “gay sex.”

  9. Another church denies Scripture and endorses values espoused by atheist and humanist positions. 2 Timothy 2:4 For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

  10. I don’t know, they still sound pretty intolerant to me. What’s all this “two persons” stuff? Aren’t they welcoming and affirming of polygamous marriages? How about people / animal or people / inanimate object relationships? Clearly these bigots still have a long way to go.

    • Don’t worry Larry, those Presbyterians will do exactly as you say, over time. They have no backbone left. No Bible left. No courage left. No convictions left. Soon, they will have no Christianity left.

      It’s rationaly MUCH better that you be an Atheist than a PCUSA.

      • You and those like you on this forum — who incidentally make it their goal everyday to dominate the comments section here at RNS — are Bible Worshipers; yes, idolators of scripture who have replaced the living presence of God and her Holy Spirit for the text of the bible. I think that you are also very close minded — there are amazing communities of faith (yes — churches!), doing incredible work to change lives, heal broken-ness and addiction, serve the needy, etc. that are led and supported by gay and lesbian people.

      • The Holy Spirit brings conviction in regard to what sin is. Romans 1:26-27 “Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts, Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Many think that they are pursuing a more ‘all encompassing’ church when in fact they have been caught up in a spirit of deception. Not all in the Church are truly ‘of us’ and will try to lead the church astray practicing the acts of the antichrist. Stand firm in knowing that Jesus is the ultimate champion of life and that of life eternal. He will come again and when he does he will judge everyone according to what they have done. Our job as followers of Jesus is to spread the gospel so that many may be saved and by salvation the Holy spirit will then convict those who have fallen into ‘this’ error. May the gospel go forth!

  11. Ofwhomiamtheworse

    A failing of parts of the Church in this area has been not to accept persons who are homosexual be it a choice, a lifestyle or the way one has been made. While I have not struggled with homosexuality, I have struggled with adultery (anyone want to argue that’s not a sin?), but by God’s amazing grace, persons have stood by me and helped me while the power of the Gospel has transformed. How much of the love demonstrated in the gospel has been shared to person’s, made in the image of God, who struggle with homosexuality?

    If you are heterosexual, have you looked with lust? If you are homosexual have you looked with lust? Jesus says whomever looks with lust has committed adultery in their heart. This is part of why the Bible goes on to say all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Bible says homosexuality is wrong, but it also says pride, covetousness (this is worthy of researching how much this permeates today’s culture), selfishness, love of money, greed, idolatry (this is not just for 3rd world tribes dancing around a wooden monkey……your modern day television could be an idol).

    God is love and God is also perfectly righteous and caring. Therefore, how could God be good if sin is not punished? If someone brutally beat and murdered a dear friend of your’s, would a judge be any good if the judge just let them go without punishment? Of course not, justice demands a payment for the wrong doing. God did this very thing for us, in God’s amazing love and grace, His son became flesh, lived a perfect life, was crucified died and in declaring victory over death rose from the grave so that whomever believe in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life!

    If you rob a bank with the bags of money in your hands thinking how joyful and excited you are to spend your days basking on a beach only to run out of the bank to have the police surrounding you and CNN has cameras rolling, what would happen? When you stand before the judge, their is no doubt to your guilt and before the judge sentences you to life, someone you don’t even know, or someone you even used to mock or make fun of, steps in and says I have sold everything I have and will not only pay this persons fine, but I will take their punishment. The judge looks at you and asks you if you will accept this payment for your crime. The choice is your’s — do you accept this strangers’ sacrifice, or do you reject it and take the punishment yourself? This is similar to what Jesus did for you. God offers us forgiveness and eternity in paradise with Him and all we have to do is accept His gift by placing our faith in Him and repent, meaning to turn away, from our selfish (sinful) ways and follow Him. Have you accepted this free gift?

    http://peacewithgod.jesus.net/god-so-loved-the-world/?

  12. The fight isn’t over. In fact, it hasn’t even begun. The real fight happens at the Presbytery level. I believe this is just another attempt by the left to split the church much like the Anglican’s did. Nothing more, nothing less.

  13. The essence of the comparison between religious fundamentalisms is the belief in the righteousness of religious violence — it is the common thread from Osama to the 700 Club. Starting to look like your enemies? I pray that you “will know just as you are fully known,” that great day in the future…

    • What “religious violence”? It was the gay marriagers who did the violent street protests, public death-threats, and vandalizing multiple churches after Californians initially passed Proposition 8 a few years ago. Physical violence is a clear option for the gay marriagers, but not for us Christians.

      It isn’t the Christians who are currently bullying the Christian small business owners (bakers, photographers, etc) to do their gay-wedding bidding or else get punished or driven out of business. It’s the gay marriagers doing economic and governmental violence to Christians, not the reverse.

      It is Osama, Obama and the gay marriagers who are doing damage against America. The late Osama did his damage from outside of America. The last two categories are doing THEIR damage from inside of America.

      So, are you a gay marriager Joshua? Do you support their (economic, legal and occasionally other) violence against Christians and against America? Tell the truth this time?

      • I’ve ready many of your comments on the forum for weeks now and I’ve chosen to engage you wholesale.

        Jesus doesn’t care about America. He never did — God has not interest in nations and never has. The very root of the problem in your religion is reduced to three essential theological errors — in fact, so grave they place your souls in jeopardy:
        1. Conflating God’s will & favor with nationalism and patriotism. The cross and the flag have nothing to do with each other. To conflate the two or attempt to smear the flag with the blood of the cross, or drape the sign of our redemption with the flag is a serious sin against the Lord Jesus.
        2. You have no respect for apostolic tradition and the authority of the church. The crisis in American evangelical religion — of all stripes — has been the great paradox of biblical authority, resolved ultimately only with each sheep ‘turning to his own way.’
        3. Finally, that American evangelicalism is prone to a serious form of biblical idolatry. Without the presence of the Church — and her authority, derived from Christ as the arbiter of doctrine and tradition — evangelicals in their crisis of authority have had not other intellectual option but to pursue sola scriptura to a completely unbiblical and unChristian end where the book has replaced the living presence of God.
        I would also comment that as Christians, we don’t have recourse to violence. We can be clever, yes, that is something the Lord Jesus told us to be — but never violent.

        • I hate to point this out, but…you never actually said whether or not you were a gay marriager, AND you never actually said whether you are a supporter of the economic, legal and occasionally physical VIOLENCE that they are using against Christians and against America.

          Those were the original questions that I asked of you. Meanwhile…

          1. The “blood of the cross” can never be used to justify PCUSA voting for gay marriage. Not EVER.

          2. I do have respect for apostolic tradition and the authority of the church, but NEITHER ONE of those items is ever supportive of gay marriage. Besides, PCUSA threw away both of those items the moment it voted for gay marriage, so nope, I have NO respect for PCUSA anymore. You can tell ‘em I said so.

          3. Again, neither the “authority of the Church” nor “Christ as the arbiter of doctrine and tradition” has EVER supported gay marriage and gay weddings.

          Even if I perfectly agreed with your post 100 percent, that still would not offer any justifications for the PCUSA’s specific Christ-dishonoring, Church dishonoring decision this week. Those people must have got hooked on Hell or something. Are they trying to GO there?

  14. No one can change The Word of God. Oh! PC USA even yours 100% vote mean nothing to change the Living Word of God, its doesn’t matter how great is your theology The Word will remain YES AND AMEN To The End. I think the presbyteries level should decide of it own power not to remain silent in this demonic influence.

  15. Its their church, their rules. Nobody forces anyone to join it. If you wanted a say in the matter, you could have voted on the issue with the other members of the church. If you are not a member of that church, they are not answerable to you. They don’t have to care.

    • CarrotCakeMan

      Why not go all the way, anti-gays? Join the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kansas! Why, anti-gays can even buy the homes in the immediate vicinity of Westboro’s luxury compound (Google Satellite View and see the swimming pool) for just a couple thousand dollars–the present homeowners are that desperate to move out!

  16. CarrotCakeMan

    The more anti-gays shriek their anti-gay Hate Speech and propaganda, the faster other denominations will join the PCUSA and many other major Christian and Jewish denominations in marrying same gender couples where state laws don’t deny them their Freedom Of Religion.

    • I’m concerned about the report of a “lopsided” vote on this matter. 69-31 is a clear majority but the original article (for which most or all of these comments prior to today were based) stated a 76-24 vote … how could such an egregious error have gone to print, and why would the author report such a remarkable difference between that and the correction … the “yes” vote being reported initially was overstated by more than 10% and the “no” vote understated by nearly 30%. Interestingly enough the comments seemed to subside significantly AFTER the correction was published on 6/24/2014. All that said, I’m reading with some dismay the blatant disregard for what God’s Word says regarding the lifestyle characterized by the modern (?) term “Homosexuality” (modern term? 1870? Really?) … it’s not about the terminology which by the way is accurate … they didn’t speak English when the bible was written … in fact, nobody spoke modern English anywhere in the world … but the intent was clear that God created them Man and Woman and that they would be joined as one …

      It’s sad to see this vote to accept what God clearly condemned at Sodom and Gomorrah, as unnatural and contrary to his intent. Sadder still that as a multi-generational Presbyterian, I’m faced with the choice to fight for what’s right, or depart and pray for the souls of all those who either do not know what God intended, or are too timid to resist what God clearly did not intend. From that same book, the Bible, and unless you’re really not Christian, the book you believe is God’s inspired word … I draw this point of wisdom from Proverbs 16, where it’s stated that we mortals do what seems to us to be right, but God sees the truth of things and of his words we see the truth too … so if the church I grew up in (and many generations of my family before were also part of) choses to eschew the very words of God, then I have to consider that fight or flight mode … in the Bible we’re taught to “Flee from Evil” … but the Celtic Warrior in my Spirit wants so desperately to defend what’s right, despite whatever noisy gongs exist. It’s a hard choice!

  17. Offensive Bias

    Well another church Presbyterian Church (USA) that is going down the gutter.

    Too bad they are ignoring God’s word and inserting their own ideals.

    Some churches are doing what Israel did when it left God and worshiped idols. History is repeating itself.

  18. I’m concerned about the report of a “lopsided” vote on this matter. 69-31 is a clear majority but the original article (for which most or all of these comments prior to today were based) stated a 76-24 vote … how could such an egregious error have gone to print, and why would the author report such a remarkable difference between that and the correction … the “yes” vote being reported initially was overstated by more than 10% and the “no” vote understated by nearly 30%. Interestingly enough the comments seemed to subside significantly AFTER the correction was published on 6/24/2014. All that said, I’m reading with some dismay the blatant disregard for what God’s Word says regarding the lifestyle characterized by the modern (?) term “Homosexuality” (modern term? 1870? Really?) … it’s not about the terminology which by the way is accurate … they didn’t speak English when the bible was written … in fact, nobody spoke modern English anywhere in the world … but the intent was clear that God created them Man and Woman and that they would be joined as one …

    It’s sad to see this vote to accept what God clearly condemned at Sodom and Gomorrah, as unnatural and contrary to his intent. Sadder still that as a multi-generational Presbyterian, I’m faced with the choice to fight for what’s right, or depart and pray for the souls of all those who either do not know what God intended, or are too timid to resist what God clearly did not intend. From that same book, the Bible, and unless you’re really not Christian, the book you believe is God’s inspired word … I draw this point of wisdom from Proverbs 16, where it’s stated that we mortals do what seems to us to be right, but God sees the truth of things and of his words we see the truth too … so if the church I grew up in (and many generations of my family before were also part of) choses to eschew the very words of God, then I have to consider that fight or flight mode … in the Bible we’re taught to “Flee from Evil” … but the Celtic Warrior in my Spirit wants so desperately to defend what’s right, despite whatever noisy gongs exist. It’s a hard choice!

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