VATICAN CITY (RNS) The Church of England’s vote to allow female bishops threatens unity with the Catholic Church, according to the editor of the Vatican newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano.

Giovanni Maria Vian is the editor of L'Osservatore Romano, a post he has held since 2007.

Giovanni Maria Vian is the editor of L’Osservatore Romano. He has worked as the newspaper’s top editor since 2007. Creative Commons image by Premiosciacca

Giovanni Maria Vian, who is also a Rome historian, on Tuesday said the decision would have “an extremely negative impact” on steps to bring the churches closer together despite a positive meeting between Archbishop of Canterbury Justin Welby and Pope Francis a month ago.

“Clearly it’s a decision that complicates the ecumenical path,” Vian said in an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa published on Tuesday (July 15). “The problem is not only with Rome but also with Orthodox Churches, and that the Anglican Church is itself divided on the issue.”

After nearly 20 years of debate, the Church of England’s General Synod voted Monday to permit women priests to be ordained as bishops, overturning centuries of tradition in a church that has been deeply divided over the issue.

The Vatican newspaper made no mention of the issue in its Tuesday edition, and the Vatican’s chief spokesman, the Rev. Federico Lombardi, was not available for comment. L’Osservatore Romano is a semi-independent publication of the Vatican and rarely publishes anything that strays from the church’s position or teaching.

Sir David Moxon, the archbishop of Canterbury’s representative to the Holy See, said the Anglican and Catholic faiths enjoyed good relations, and Vatican officials had told him that collaboration would continue.

“We know there are differences, but what unites us is much greater than what divides us,” Moxon told RNS. “Relations between the archbishop of Canterbury and Pope Francis are cordial and respectful.”

Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco, head of the Italian Bishops’ Conference, said the Catholic Church’s view on female priests was clear as “everyone knows what it thinks.”

The Church of England is the mother church of the 77 million-member Anglican Communion, which includes the Episcopal Church in the United States. Episcopalians were the first branch of Anglicanism to elect a female bishop, in 1988, and today are led by a woman, Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori.

KRE/AMB END McKENNA

50 Comments

  1. Elaine Bondra

    I am proud that the Anglican Communion has chosen to be a leader in ending the exclusion of women as full participants of the Christian church. I was raised Roman Catholic but found the Episcopal Church after years of non-attendence. My proudest moment was being received into the Episcopal Church by a woman bishop, after years of being less than equal in the eyes of my church.

    • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

      And now the Church of England will go to the government to ratify its subservient role to culture and the state–things haven’t changed much since Henry VIII.

      • Os course Deacon,Priests are much freer than under Henry and Bess, no priest holes. Priest hole is the term given to hiding places for priests built into many of the principal Catholic houses of England during the period when Catholics were persecuted by law in England, from the beginning of the reign of Queen Elizabeth I in 1558.
        And now much easier for protestants:
        The Actes and Monuments, popularly known as Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, is a work of Protestant history and martyrology by John Foxe, first published in English in 1563 by John Day. It includes a polemical account of the sufferings of Protestants under the Catholic Church, with particular emphasis on England and Scotland. The book was highly influential in those countries, and helped shape lasting popular notions of Catholicism there. The book went through four editions in Foxe’s lifetime and a number of later editions and abridgements, including some that specifically reduced the text to a Book of English martyrs

  2. Now “female Priest” has brought disunity to the once peaceful Church and as a nuclear radiation (power radiation instead) will soon bring its downfall , all in the quest for power not the kingdom.

      • Larry
        All are equally human beings, equally creatures of God, and equally intended by God to save their souls and attain heavenly happiness in eternity. But all are obviously not equal in this world. There are tremendous inequalities in health, mental ability, force of character, wealth, duties and power. And these differences will always result in unequal grades in society. We can never arrive at complete social and economic equality[ Marx convinced of equality of all began with Das Kapital, Kritik der politischen Ökonomie (; Capital: Critique of Political Economy), a critical analysis of political economy, Such finished with collapse of his dream in 1989
        The Revolutions of 1989 were part of a revolutionary wave that resulted in the fall of communism in the communist states of Central and Eastern Europe. The period is sometimes called the Autumn of Nations, a play on the term “Spring of Nations”, used to describe the Revolutions of 1848.

        • That’s all well and good but acknowledging an unequal immoral situation exists is not the same as addressing it in a sane manner. Your evasion is apparent.

          It would be dishonest for you not to acknowledge how religious hierarchies within Christianity have contributed to attacking the liberties of women. More dishonest if you could not come up with a rational cause why such a situation should exist.

          But here we are. Catholics have to deal with female clergy in their ecumenical interactions with Anglicans. Catholics now are left asking questions why their sect requires male only clergy when one of the largest mainline Protestant sects does not.

    • Come Come Francis! As GK Chesterton once quipped:
      “At least five times, therefore, with the Arian and the Albigensian, with the Humanist sceptic, after Voltaire and after Darwin, the Faith has to all appearance gone to the dogs. In each of these five cases it was the dog that died.”
      [GKC could have added the early church wacky Gnostic heretics, who were hell bent on priestesses]

      • #Mr Larry sir Laying aside your signature gung ho gratuitous attack on hierarchy, You have shown below, an appalling refusal to submit to an explicit command of Christ to reject priestesses and high priestesses.
        #Even as an elected president of an ecumenical ministers’ group, I never experienced your lacrimose angst at presence of priestesses and married clergy, I fully understand whee they come from and where they are heading,
        and they served excellent scones at meetings must say!!!

    • Mr Doerr Sir the RCC has beside canonising women saints,extolled womanhood
      to the heights in Mary Mother of God. In medieval times when society demeaned women,the Church had women Leaders in the forefront of health care as mother superiors and mother general executives lraders in social outreach.
      Rationalisr Historian William E. Lecky, , wrote in his “History of European Morals,” that the vast change in the status of women must be manifest to all after Christianity had superseded the unlimited license of the pagan Empire. He says that Christianity’s absolute prohibition of sexual indulgence outside marriage, the security of wives by the prohibition of divorce, the legal rights of guardianship of children hitherto reserved to men, and the inheritance of widows — these things enhanced women’s dignity and status. Lecky even writes, in a way foreign to his own beliefs: “Whatever may be thought of its theological propriety, there can be little doubt that reverence for the Virgin Mary has done much to elevate and purify the ideal of woman and soften the manners of men.” He adds that this gave rise to the “redeeming and ennobling features of the age of chivalry which no succeeding change of habit or belief has wholly destroyed.”

      • Women in medieval times beyond mythtaken caricatures[Catholic Encyclopaedia 2003]
        “Throughout the Middle Ages the convents and monasteries were the centers of formal education. The available evidence indicates that there were more convents than monasteries and that on occasion an abbess would be the religious superior of men as well as of women. It is likewise quite probable that more women than men received what formal education was given. With the men dedicating themselves to war, chivalry, and husbandry, reading and writing were quite frequently thought of as the work of clerics and women. The Crusades led to the further involvement and predominance of women in domestic economies and industries. The guilds generally did not exclude women. The growth of towns, international trade, universities, and the amazing development of church architecture were all liberalizing influences in male-female relationships. Women were not only students but likewise, in not rare instances, professors at the universities, especially in Italy and Germany. In summarizing the relative position of women in the period, a severe critic has concluded that “women in the Middle Ages probably enjoyed more equality with men than most of the time since” [A. W. Calhoun, A Social History of the American Family, v. 1 (Cleveland 1917) 15].

  3. Here the Catholics are right, though mostly for the wrong reason. Women shouldn’t be bishops (or elders or overseers) not because Jesus didn’t choose any female apostles, but rather because Paul taught in 1 Tim 2 that women should not teach or exercise authority over men in the church.

      • Not so Larry Jesus explicitly commanded women not be priests. For St. Paul in 1 Cor 14 34-38, outlaws women from preaching authoritatively in Eucharistic liturgy, and he declares this injunction, a command of the Lord, not a misogynist cultural quirk of Paul. So Jesus is the direct authorization against women preaching in church/assembly[an essential duty of the male priesthood in the liturgical assemblies!]. What is forbidden wimen is the priestly role of preaching authoritatively [Greek-lalei’n] as distinct from other spoken testimonies, etc. let alone speaking firmly to difficult children restless in church[pace sacristy/flower ladies.]

        • Paul is not Jesus. A stronger exegetical approach would rather uncover great ambiguity about the role and leadership of women, considering the acts and words of Jesus in comparison with those of followers such as Paul. In short, don’t mislead people PAUL said it, NOT Jesus.

          • Mr Josh Sir
            #That Paul was commanded by Christ couldn’t be clearer. As a Scriptural vehicle of Revelation, Paul. is directly Inspired by the Holy Spirit and in this instance Commanded by Christ re priestesses.[All totally congruent with Jesus only ordaining men at Last Supper[though wacky later Gnostic heretics invested heavily in priestesses.
            They still are around in pockets eg 70000 at River Tigris etc should you be interested:
            #”GNOSTICISM. The theory of salvation by knowledge. Already in the first century of the Christian era there were Gnostics who claimed to know the mysteries of the universe. They were disciples of the various pantheistic sects that existed before Christ. The Gnostics borrowed what suited their purpose from the Gospels, wrote new gospels of their own, and in general proposed a dualistic system of belief. Matter was said to be hostile to spirit, and the universe was held to be a deprivation of the Deity. Although extinct as an organized religion, Gnosticism is the invariable element in every major Christian heresy, by its denial of an objective revelation that was completed in the apostolic age and its disclaimer that Christ established in the Church a teaching authority to interpret decisively the meaning of the revealed word of God”.
            Hardon, John (2013-06-25). Catholic Dictionary: An Abridged and Updated Edition of Modern Catholic Dictionary (p. 192). The Doubleday Religious Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.
            ============================
            #Exegetes are not inspired as scripture authors let alone given direct commands by Christ-[if alleged such then change scholars medication,]
            #exegetes are into hermeneutics of revelation not instrumental vehicles of revelation-
            #dont overate exegetes vis a vis New Testament writers[they are two a penny these days-massive discernment is needed

          • So Father John George, you are left with what amounts to hearsay and trying to stretch his point beyond the facts. Essentially you are trying to say whatever Paul said is what Jesus said. But that would be fabrication on your part. Being inspired by Jesus is not the same as claiming he said or did something. A film inspired by a true story does not mean it is one. :)

            As I said, your argument is that “Paul said it”. You pretended to correct me, but really did not. Instead you are left with an argument which is simply referencing authority without bothering to give a reason why it should be considered relevant.

            Are there actual arguments against female clergy which can be stated beyond, “___ says so and I must obey”? You are not giving an impression they exist.

      • NOW WE ARE LEFT WITH BECAUSE LARRY SAYS SO, PASSIM!!
        AS HE JETTISONS EVERY VESTIGE OF HIGH HERMENEUTICS FOR TEDIOUS REPETITIOUS OSESSIONAL; IPSE DIXITISM**
        **[Ipse dixit, Latin for “He, himself, said it,” is a term used to identify and describe a sort of arbitrary dogmatic statement which the speaker expects the listener to accept as valid. It is also called “the bare assertion fallacy.”
        [Big thrill for Eskimos in the Sahara MR LARRY SIR]

        • You can wrap it up in fancy jargon but it still comes down to the same argument. You lied outright when you said “Jesus explicitly commanded women not be priests”. Since it was not Jesus’s words at all. Jesus was long dead before Paul even “got the Christ in him”.

          You are relying on the musings of a man who never met Jesus yet allegedly knew his will on all things. You can’t say Jesus said much on the subject so you rely on Paul. Someone whose validity to speak for the will of all Christendom is neither universal accepted nor can be logically construed as such.

          The rest of your posts were incoherent irrelevant blather. Women can’t be clergy because you don’t want them to be.

          • Conversion of Paul the Apostle and meeting with Jesus
            The Conversion of Paul the Apostle, was, according to the New Testament, an event that took place in the life of Paul the Apostle which led him to cease persecuting early Christians and to become a follower of Jesus. It is normally dated by researchers to AD 33–36. Then of course the other meetings with Christ who eg gave command no priestesses![which bring Larry TOTALLY undone and ‘gasterflabbed’] while noting Christ never ordained women and as primordial priest was Himself[echo chambers drum rolls] a M-A-L-E!!
            YOUR GRATUITOUS ASSERTIONS CAN EQUALLY BE GRATUITOUSLY NEGATED, at a minimum, in accord with Thomistic axiom “quod gratuiter asseritur, graruiter negatur” [tuff larry]

          • Perhaps our Larry is unaware of the post resurrection appearances of the Risen Christ versus Larry Devised Double Dutch NT Version® [with interlinear blasphemies and footnoted distortions]

          • Larry regardless of my conviction Anglican women are and have been ordained since 1944 not overlooking rich pagan precedent
            In ancient Greek religion, some important observances, such as the Thesmophoria, were made by women. Priestesses played a major role in the Eleusinian Mysteries. The Gerarai were priestesses of Dionysus who presided over festivals and rituals associated with the god. A body of priestesses might also maintain the cult at a particular holy site, such as the Peleiades at the oracle of Dodona. The Arrephoroi were young girls ages seven to twelve who worked as servants of Athena Polias on the Athenian Acropolis and were charged with conducting unique rituals.

            At several sites women priestesses served as oracles , the most famous of which is the Oracle of Delphi. The priestess of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi was the Pythia, credited throughout the Greco-Roman world for her prophecies, which gave her a prominence unusual for a woman in male-dominated ancient Greece. The Phrygian Sibyl presided over an oracle of Apollo in Anatolian Phrygia. The inspired speech of divining women, however, was interpreted by male priests; a woman might be a mantic (mantis) who became the mouthpiece of a deity through possession, but the “prophecy of interpretation” required specialized knowledge and was considered a rational process suited only to a male ‘”prophet” (prophētēs).

          • Larry really old chap! Confusing Biblical Inspiration with your inspired Hollywood movies,earlier, is the pits of biblical discourse
            # I await your biblical allusion to Donald Fauntleroy Duck or Donald Duck = a funny animal cartoon character created in 1934[10YEARS BEFORE ANGLICAN FIRST WOMAN ORDINATION] at Walt Disney Productions. Donald is an anthropomorphic white duck with a yellow-orange bill, legs, and feet. He typically wears a sailor suit with a cap and a black or red bow tie. Donald is most famous for his semi-intelligible speech[like Larry] and his mischievous and irritable personality. Along with his friend Mickey Mouse, Donald is one of the most popular Disney characters and was included in TV Guide’s list of the 50 greatest cartoon characters of all time in 2002. He has appeared in more films than any other Disney character, listed as appearing in approximately 178 theatrical films compared to Mickey Mouse’s 137, and is the fifth most published comic book character in the world after Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, and Wolverine.

            HOPE THAT HELPS LARRY CHAP!

          • Post resurrection appearances in more objective terms means, he never met him in person. He is not an eyewitness to anything Jesus did. If you were Paul’s neighbor, you would be thinking he was a bit of a nutjob who hallucinated the whole thing after being in the desert without covering his head during the day.

            If you want to treat the Bible as something with a factual basis, then you have to chalk it up to something which lacks credibility in of itself. Something which can only be chalked up to myth, miracle or insane ramblings. Of course once you go the route of miracles and whatnot, you essentially admit that the whole thing depends on your level of credulity to such stories and nothing else.

            As for the rest of your posts what the??? Disney? My guess is a lot of your post sounded intelligent and coherent in your head. But on the page we have writing samples best seen by forensic psychologists.

            However you did come up with something other than “Paul said so”. You are saying that pagans used women as priests therefore Christians shouldn’t. Christians stole a lot of things from various pagan cultures and appropriated ideas from them (every Christian holiday and agricultural “dying god” motifs). All you have acknowledged is that the idea of women as a link to the spiritual and religious is not a ridiculous concept. You have actually made a better case for women as clergy than I would have.

        • MrLarry!To suggest an inspired biblical writer was a mere gossip dispensing hearsay is a blasphemous insult to Prime Author of NT, inspieing his instrumental vehicle saint Paul[such a notion preposterous even granted great advances in Biblical and Form criticism etc
          #Biblical Criticism is the scholarly “study and investigation of biblical writings that seeks to make discerning judgments about these writings”. Viewing biblical texts as having human and supernatural origins, it asks when and where a particular text originated; how, why, by whom, for whom, and in what circumstances it was produced; what influences were at work in its production; what sources were used in its composition; and what message it was intended to convey. It will vary slightly depending on whether the focus is on the Old Testament, the letters of New Testament or the Canonical gospels. It also plays an important role in the quest for a Historical Jesus.
          #Form criticism is a method of biblical criticism that classifies units of scripture by literary pattern and that attempts to trace each type to its period of oral transmission. Form criticism seeks to determine a unit’s original form and the historical context of the literary tradition. Hermann Gunkel originally developed form criticism to analyze the Hebrew Bible. It has since been used to supplement the documentary hypothesis explaining the origin of the Pentateuch (the first five books of the Hebrew Bible or Old Testament) and to study the Christian New Testament.

          • “MrLarry!To suggest an inspired biblical writer was a mere gossip dispensing hearsay is a blasphemous insult to Prime Author of NT”

            Which one? There are several authors of the NT. They even acknowledge the writers as the chapters of the books.

            As for blasphemy, all that means is that your beliefs are different from my own. It also means that you lack objective support and have to rely on blind faith/sectarian affinity for your arguments to be convincing. In other words, if one is to look at the NT from an objective point of view, you can’t really refute my comments other than to say you find them not to your liking.

            I don’t believe anything has a supernatural origin.That is just an excuse to avoid questions you don’t want asked.

          • Laurence son!
            1a]Your Dr Sickmind Fraud hallucinatory reductionisms belie modern advances in biblico historical professional scholarship. Such torpedoes your desert hallucination sci fi-DONALD DUCK concoction[corroborated in DSM 5 Psychiatric bible??-no Rorschach tests in those days for your DIY retroactove pauline ink blot tests for desert hallucinations !!
            b]Beside a thriving industry of biblical archeology,underpinning biblical history there are global uni faculties of biblical studies corroborating biblical historicity.
            c]No literature has been fine-combed with interdisciplinary resources for multiple attestation than the Bible.
            d] My own biblical studies included the secular faculty of University of Canberra whose History faculty used the New Testament as an authentic historical ‘primary source’.
            e]Historical veracity of scripture out-resources your signature ‘fictional historical’ aetiology
            http://bloviatingzeppelin.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Atheism.jpg

          • Father John George

            Larry you protest too much that nothing has supernatural origin when your frenetic screeds are forged,published and regurgitated in the jaws of hell inc: a locus corroborated by scripture and lavey.
            #jThe ideology of LaVeyan Satanism is a philosophy similar to Objectivism founded in 1966 by Anton LaVey. Its core beliefs and philosophies are based on individualism, secular humanism, religious skepticism, freethought, epicureanism and “eye for an eye” morality.

          • Larry welcome yo Biblical Studies 101:
            i]the Prime and principal author of the bible is God.The writers are secondary acculturated authors
            ii]##Enculturation is the process by which people learn the requirements of their surrounding culture and acquire values and behaviours appropriate or necessary in that culture.
            iii]As part of this process, the influences that limit, direct, or shape the individual (whether deliberately or not) include parents, other adults, and peers.
            iv]If successful, enculturation results in competence in the language, values and rituals of the culture.
            v] However Secondary authors are not constrained by culture in presenting Revelation, as the latter is often counter-cuiltural [eg Decalogue].
            vi] but culture is used by God to convey His revelation,oft purifying and perfecting customs etc’

      • In reply to Larry above be advised of hierarchy of levels of inspired truth
        1] Much of St Paul’s teaching was infused knowledge,assisted by Holy Spirit in essential message.
        2]Such inspiration characterused most of Pauline writing.
        3] An explicit blatant command of Christ obviously was not common and reserved for a key such as like priestesses.[not all Pauline writings had nature of EXPLICIT INTERVENTION OF A DOMINICAL COMMAND in hierarchy of revealed-infallible truths
        —————————————————————————————-
        INSPIRATION, BIBLICAL. The special influence of the Holy Spirit on the writers of Sacred Scripture in virtue of which God himself becomes the principal author of the books written and the sacred writer is the subordinate author. In using human beings as his instruments in the composition, God does so in harmony with the person’s nature and temperament, and with no violence to the free, natural activity of his or her human faculties. According to the Church’s teaching, “by supernatural power, God so moved and impelled them to write, He was so present to them, that the things which He ordered and those only they first rightly understood, then willed faithfully to write down, and finally expressed in apt words and with infallible truth” (Pope Leo XIII, Providentissimus Deus, Denzinger 3293).

        Hardon, John (2013-06-25). Catholic Dictionary: An Abridged and Updated Edition of Modern Catholic Dictionary (pp. 231-232). The Doubleday Religious Publishing Group. Kindle Edition. ]

        • Translation of Father John George to plain honest English
          1. St. Paul’s message is at best hearsay. He had no actual contact with Jesus.
          2. Father John want to accept Paul because he makes you feel good
          3. Father John doesn’t have actual evidence to back up his claims. So he asks us to read between the lines. His way because he says so.

          • Reading, in between your lines Mr Laurence, and the lines rhemselves, it is clear you have totally lost the plot and have made an industry of infullabull outbursts against Revelation and all forms of high biblical criticism and hermeneusis, exchanging the latter for sanctimonious repetitive wishful thinking[ipse dixitism] couched in histrionic polemics!
            #Hermeneutics is the theory of text interpretation, especially the interpretation of biblical texts, wisdom literature, and philosophical texts. The terms “hermeneutics” and “exegesis” are sometimes used interchangeably. Hermeneutics is a wider discipline that includes written, verbal, and nonverbal communication. Exegesis focuses primarily upon texts. Hermeneutic, as a singular noun, refers to a single particular method or strand of interpretation (see, in contrast, double hermeneutic). The understanding of any written text requires hermeneutics.

      • Father John George

        Sorry Dan but can you tell Larry above that God is primary author of NT and secondary human authors are instrumental ‘authors’ only ,inspired by Holy Spirit unlike Larry’s trademark satanic verses!
        Also emind him I have ad nauseam passim responded with meticulous objectivity to his myopic subjectivity of a preprogrammed Laveyan clone
        ##Anton Szandor LaVey (born Howard Stanton Levey; April 11, 1930 – October 29, 1997) was an American author, occultist, and musician. He was the founder of the Church of Satan as well as the author of The Satanic Bible and the founder of LaVeyan Satanism, a synthesized system of his understanding of human nature and the insights of philosophers who advocated materialism and individualism, for which he claimed no supernatural or theistic inspiration.

        • Father John George

          Lavey claimed no supernatural aetiology, how about the father of lies [DRUM ROLLS ECHO CHAMBERS] S-a-t-a-n trivialized by Larry as s-a-n-t-a fiction?

        • Father John George

          Larry as for blasphemy bring mere difference of opinion be careful son
          #Blasphemy law is a law limiting the freedom of speech and expression relating to blasphemy, or irreverence toward holy personages, religious artifacts, customs, or beliefs.

    • Theopholus, Paul had an explicit command from the Lord against priestesses-Jesus didn’t choose them then,previously or now.They were endemic in pagan society-[this has been discussed here passim ad nauseam!]
      #Jesus ordained no women priesters – Anglicanism reverted to early condemned weird gnostic sect praxis with first Anglican ordinations beginning In Far East Hong Kong in 1944 not Middle East Galilee 1CE
      ================
      #Florence Li Tim-Oi ( Cantonese Lei Tim’oi, Mandarin Li Tian’ai; 5 May 1907 in Hong Kong – 26 February 1992 in Toronto) was the first woman to be ordained to the priesthood in the Anglican Communion. Already appointed as a deacon to serve in the colony of Macau at the Macau Protestant Chapel, she was ordained priest on 25 January 1944, by Ronald Hall, Bishop of Victoria, in response to the crisis among Anglican Christians in China caused by the Japanese invasion. Since it was to be thirty years before any Anglican church regularised the ordination of women, her ordination was controversial and she resigned her licence (though not her priestly orders) after the end of the war. When Hong Kong ordained two further women priests in 1971, she was officially recognised as a priest in the diocese. She was appointed an honorary (nonstipendiary) assistant priest in Toronto in 1983, where she spent the remainder of her life.
      =================================
      #Gnosticism (from gnostikos, “learned”, from , knowledge) describes a collection of ancient religions that taught that people should shun the material world created by the demiurge and embrace the spiritual world. Gnostic ideas influenced many ancient religions that teach that gnosis (variously interpreted as knowledge, enlightenment, salvation, emancipation or ‘oneness with God’) may be reached by practicing philanthropy to the point of personal poverty, sexual abstinence (as far as possible for , completely for initiates) and diligently searching for wisdom by helping others. However, practices varied among those who were Gnostic.

  4. Viva l’Osservatore Romano tradition in high priestesses!
    In its 1965 international meeting in Rome, the Catholic **St. Joan’s Alliance intensified its campaign for the ordination of women priests, and petitioned the Second Vatican Council that its provision for a lay diaconate ministry be applied to women as well as to men. But the petition was simply ignored.
    The Vatican daily paper “Osservatore Romano” noted the petition, but said that the Council could not comply with it, even if it wanted to. According to the teachings of the Catholic Church women cannot be either lawfully or validly ordained as priests. In the early Church erratic Gnostic sects who attempted to ordain women as priests were condemned as heretical for doing so. The ordination of a woman would simply be null and void. This is in accordance with the constant teaching and practice of the Church from the earliest apostolic times. There is absolutely no warrant in Holy Scripture for ordaining women as priests. The Vatican Council distinguished clearly between the ordinary priesthood of all baptised Christians and the ministerial priesthood conferred by the Sacrament of Holy Orders. Were the Sacramental Priesthood not something other than the priesthood of the whole Christian community as the “People of God,” then one might argue that the community could delegate women members to officiate in its name. But Christ manifested His positive will by choosing twelve apostles and entrusting to them only the official teaching, ruling and sanctifying authority within the Church. This will of Christ shows the divinelygiven nature of the Church. Only the positive will of Christ could give a sure basis for the ordination of women; and of that the New Testament gives no indication anywhere.
    I add “complicates” is Romanita-talk for unmitigated disaster
    ==================
    **St. Joan’s International Alliance
    St. Joan’s International Alliance is a non profit women’s organization. St. Joan’s is a feminist Catholic organization, with a focus on women’s equality. It is named after St. Joan of Arc. The organization has played a major role in influencing the ordination of women and general human rights. Their mission is “to secure the political, social and economic equality between men and women and to further the work and usefulness of Catholic women as citizens”.

  5. May I append the definitively binding teaching of Saint John Paul?
    #Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is an Apostolic Letter issued by Pope John Paul II on 22 May 1994 whereby he expounded upon the Catholic Church’s position requiring “the reservation of priestly ordination to men alone” and stated that “the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women”. The document itself states that it was written so “that all doubt may be removed: regarding a matter of great importance”
    l

    • Daniel Berry, NYC

      wouldn’t it have to be “ex cathedra” to be “definitively binding”?

      having an “St” in front of your name isn’t a very good reason to call something “binding.” Many such people have said a lot of very messed up things over the centuries which the Roman bureaucracy has had to pretend were never said.

      Popes have been wrong, councils have been wrong, so-called “saints” have been wrong. Do you get it yet? EVERYBODY has been wrong. And hiding behind medieval titles isn’t going to make any of it right either.

      • Cutting through your smoke screening Mr. Berry Sir with a veritable gaggle of Berry’s infallibilities[despite Mr. [POPE?] infallible protestations ” EVERYBODY has been wrong”, we arrive at the serene commission of infallibility by Jesus to Peter and his successors,[begrudged by Mr. Berry the infallible one]. Yet Peter already burdened with sin and human failing.Jesus once even referred to Peter as Satan!
        “And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock[b] I will build my church, and the gates of hell[c] shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed[d] in heaven.” [MT 16:19]
        #Pope Saint John Paul has used this charism nuanced by tradition and magisterium to define infallibly the non admission of priestesses, let alone high priestesses.
        # His later postmortem canonisation and human frailty is no impediment to infallibility safeguarded by the Holy Spirit and Jesus Himself, versus Mr. Berry’s dramatic escalation of gratuitous, infallible decrees abundant above, making Councils and Popes look like doubting Thomases!!
        #Finally I used epithet Saint. only as a mere well deserved honorific title. The Popes infallible decree ex-cathedra= ‘from the chair’ stands for his role as visible head of the church] However, he was canonised after death and decrees Mr. Berry sir!

  6. Why is it that MEN always seem to enter this debate as if the words count from them anymore. Prophetic obedience trumps any Vatican, malepriest ‘authority’ posturing which is what Daniel Berry is getting at. Women’s call to priesthood is from the Spirit, not a male hierarchy that has continually arrested women’s power from them.
    We persevere because we know we are becoming all we can no matter in whichever religion or not, it comes from. We are in the right of our rites and will continue no matter what the men try to say is ‘binding’ because it is a male human construct. Women are and have been part of church history for 2000 years and our presence now counts more than ever because we are leaders, even if it is not recognized by the current power structure.
    If women do not take charge of our own spirituality then it will never happen. No one defines us except our selves and each other. Eve speaks in a loud voice and Mary is no longer silent–their hearts are speaking a truth that is known and strong.

    • #Despite the Jihad rhetoricالجهاد, حرب فى سبيل الدين Ms Poss, deaconesses dressed in male clergy raiment frenetically track down one of those evil m-le thing bishops in male thoroughbred apostolic tradition,followed by M-le ordination ritual on a de rigeuer splashing river boat.[on ole m-n river??]
      #Forget feminine coiffure and chic chapeau and millinery the priestess fit out is unambiguously patriarchal Roman collars, ciothes and ensconced on androgyny hair cut a m-le mitre thing.
      #Would like to see you explain away supereminent male primordial priest Jesus Christ, He never ordained women, not even his Blessed Mother [yet he never flinched at being countercultural]

  7. Why exactly does one need a male member to lead a church when presumably that member isn’t involved in the process?

    Unless you’re a Catholic priest apparently, and then it’s just used for abusing children.

    Looks like the Anglicans have that figured out – women abuse children at significantly lower rates.

  8. Welcome to Mr. Smiths abuse myopia, dragged in when logic has gone out the window-go for the dirt-but dirt magnets undermine top strategy.
    1. Give documentary policy proof of women ordained to avoid pedophiles, name filyhi malr candidates rejected and sent back home to carry on as usual
    2. If males are an intrinsic threat to children why do they keep ordaining males and not sacking all male clergies.
    3, in fact, in ‘smith think’ government ought sanction laws blocking males in any child-related industry.
    4. Why hasn’t Smith’s Anglican Church’s male-o-caust policy handed names of all male priests to the ‘Geheime Staatspolizei’ Gestap…[oops! I meant “police”?]
    5 In Mr. Smith’s ‘male-o-caust’ final solution, no males should be teachers, as the USA Shakeshaft Report to Congress, indicated 4,5 million kids were
    sexually abused in US State schools.[NO MALE CATHOLIC PRIESTS]
    6. Ultimately of course Herr Smith, at Last Judgement, will face down God for sending His Male Son as Priest who ordained only [drum rolls, echo chambers ]MEN of the MALE GENDER AND REJECTED WOMEN OF THE OPPOSITE SEX].

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