(RNS) Dear faithful brothers and sisters:

Some of you do not understand how your country can extend employment protections to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people. I have been in ministry with LGBT people for decades, so permit me to share with you what happened Monday (July 21).

Nancy Wilson is the elected Moderator (global leader) of Metropolitan Community Churches.

Nancy Wilson is the elected moderator of the Metropolitan Community Churches. Photo courtesy Metropolitan Community Churches

President Obama signed two executive orders. The first added “sexual orientation and gender identity” to an executive order first issued by President Lyndon Johnson in 1965 that bans employment discrimination by any recipient of federal funds. The second adds LGBT protections to an executive order by President George W. Bush. The order still says religious groups can discriminate, even if they receive federal funds: “Religious organizations which receive federal funds may discriminate on religious grounds in their employment practices as allowed under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.”

Many people — religious or not — are surprised when they hear that anyone who is LGBT, or perceived to be, can be fired or not hired. There are faith leaders and politicians who will tell you these protections are unnecessary, but LGBT people with whom I minister in the pews of Metropolitan Community Churches throughout the U.S. tell me stories of losing jobs or job opportunities, simply because of their sexual orientation.

Until today, millions held jobs and lived in areas where there were no barriers to discriminating against people if they were perceived to be LGBT.

Sadly, millions more are still not protected.

The Williams Institute of the UCLA School of Law documents that only 21 states prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation and only 16 of these also ban discrimination based on gender identity. Both straight and LGBT workers consistently report they have witnessed discrimination against LGBT people. According to the Williams Institute, “As recently as 2011, 90 percent of respondents to the largest survey of transgender people to date reported having experienced harassment or mistreatment at work.”

These executive orders provide a stopgap measure until a version of the Employment Non-Discrimination Act can be passed. When that passes, employment discrimination will no longer be legal in any setting — not just employment connected to federal funding.

Will this force religious groups to hire LGBT ministers? No. Churches, synagogues, mosques and all religious groups have the right to determine within their own tradition whom they will ordain, marry or accept for membership.

Will employment nondiscrimination make some people uncomfortable? Perhaps. I encourage such people to pray about their role in our country and in the Christian body, which includes all of us through God’s grace.

MCC churches have spent almost a half-century picking up people along our own “road to Jericho” where our homeless and beaten young people fell and lay waiting for a helping hand. We formed our own churches and healed many broken bodies. We healed ourselves of self-hatred with God’s help. Today, Episcopal, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Unitarian, United Church of Christ and even some Baptist congregations have opened their doors to our families, our leadership and our lives.

In the civil arena, we are at a turning point, with marriages of same-sex couples now legal in 19 states; several more states await final rulings in the courts. Some traditions will never open their doors to LGBT persons. The U.S. Constitution protects their right to their religious opinion. They will never be required to hire LGBT people in religious contexts.

But for those who ask, “What does God require?” please read the Book of Acts. Peter was given a vision to accept gentiles who were deemed unfit for the kingdom of God. But, God told him, “Do not call unclean what God has declared clean.” Paul talked to the leaders of Jerusalem to convince them that ministry amongst the gentiles was where God was leading him.

Know that God has a way of taking us places we never thought we would go. Be open, pray, be kind and love God.

(The Rev. Nancy Wilson is the elected moderator of the Metropolitan Community Churches.)

YS/AMB END WILSON

78 Comments

  1. Thank you for your respectful and irenic tone. Unfortunately, many like myself do not agree (as you seem to imply) that God has declared homosexuality clean. We must find ways to love the LGBT community without agreeing with them as to what constitutes pure sexuality.

    • @ Theophilus — July 21, 2014 at 7:00 pm

      Here’s a few ideas that can make homosexuality clean…at least to the homosexual —

      1. Man’s ways are of the Lord, how can we really understand our own ways………….Proverbs 20:24

      2. You may believe there’s nothing wrong with what you are doing or how you feel about yourself, so keep it between yourself and God.
      “BLESSED” are those who don’t feel guilty of thinking of themselves and doing the things they know is best………..Romans 14:22

      3. Paul describes an interesting ‘reality’ about the scriptures, especially what he has written —

      1. …our knowledge is partial and incomplete…
      2. …we see things imperfectly…
      3. All that I know now is partial and incomplete…

      (1 Corinthians 13:9,12)

      To fill in the ‘blanks’ that ‘partial’, ‘incomplete’ and ‘imperfection’ create, we’ll probably need to do what he recommended, and that is to ‘work out our own salvation’.

      When that happens, things can become allowable, lawful and permissible on a personal level.

      The morale here is that LGBT folk have far more wiggle room to be what they think of themselves than others are willing to agree.

      • And speaking of 1 Corinthians….let’s also look at 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

        9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

        10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

        11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

        And there’s no use pretending that there’s any wiggle room on any of those activities. The one Solution to all those problems is offered in verse 11.

      • @Billysees,

        Congrats. A very noble attempt.

        I admire your forcing of “The Good Book” into behaving as a ‘better book’.
        If we could edit the whole thing we could improve it (and the future for humanity) over a weekend.

        Just something to think about:
        I could read a biography of Norman Mailer
        and see parts of his life I agree with and parts I disagree with.
        I can choose his good statements as wise
        and reject his bad statements as poor or wrongly contextualized
        considering where they fit into his life.

        Why put Jesus or God in a higher category 
if you are going to do the same thing
        with his words that we both do to Norman Mailer?

    • O most excellent Theophilus… (I like that name) I have an earnest question for you since I do not get to discuss these things with Evangelicals very often though I used to be one many years ago.

      I know they believe that the sexual acts of the LGBT community are immoral…but Evangelicals don’t fight to strip the rights of adulterers or of the sexually promiscuous, or the greedy (which is called idolatry in the Bible) or of those with perpetual rage and anger… So how can they justly single out this group of people to discriminate against concerning civil rights?

      Have you thought the issue out in that direction yet?

      • Where have they sought to ‘strip the rights” of gay people? There is no “right” to gay marriage, and it does not become a “right” just because you say it suddenly became one. Funny, nobody in the world said anything about gay marriage for thousands of years – until the last couple of years, and then suddenly it is the most important right of all time.
        What they have sought to do is defend their right to have their own ideas, and in the United States we have something called freedom of religion. It is in the Constitution. You could look it up.

        • Have you always been a liar?

          Hmmm Proposition 8 specifically took away an existing right in CA for gays to marry.

          Bigots wanted a legal right to discriminate against gays in open commerce in several states.

          Bigots want to maintain a right to fire people or evict them from homes for being gay.

          There is a right to marriage which is permissive absent rational and secular reasons not to permit a union. So you are wrong there too. You don’t have one. Nobody has coughed up one in almost 20 court cases on the subject and counting.

        • The constitution guarantees religious freedom. I does not give you the right to force your religion on me. You believe the Bible uses the word homosexual. The word, the Concept did not exist until modern time.

          Go to your church, be a glutton, lie, divorce your wife. I don’t care…. your religion not mine. Just stick to religion in church and the constitution in matters of the law…. and try not to confuse the two.

  2. Actually, based on the latest SCIENCE it isn’t “orientation”–it is “preference”.
    Regardless, God sets the BOUNDARIES. When we step outside of them it’s called SIN. (That’s what Justification is for).
    But He expects us to step back within those BOUNDARIES. (It’s called Sanctification).
    All sexual immorality is SIN…..adultery, fornication & homosexuality as well as bestiality & rape.
    Please stop pandering to their sins. The greatest miracle is a new heart. Try preaching that once.

    • How many do we turn away from Christ when we choose to condemn our fellow men and neglect extending Christ’s message of love and grace? Is it not a greater sin to be the person who pushes others away from God than to be the homosexual? Doesn’t that boarder on the demonic?

      • When we sin, we push ourselves away from God. Calling out sin and loving someone enough to not support their sin IS pointing people towards God but only they can decide to move towards or away from God.

    • Actually, based on SCIENCE, they still don’t have a clue what causes it. For every studies that says they “proved” it’s “preference”, there’s another study that “proved” it’s “orientation”. Then there are bunch of other studies out there that are saying the results are still inconclusive.

      And not even mentioning SCIENCE, let’s look at COMMON SENSE. In many places, LGBT people are still denied employment, housing, and assistance. They are also still being beaten, tortured, and murdered. They are being disowned by family and de-friended by many friends. And that’s just in the US, where it’s even illegal to treat anyone in that manner. In other countries, it’s actually encouraged to treat LGBT people like that. In still other countries, being LGB or T is a crime punishable by state-funded execution. I don’t know ANYONE who would “prefer” that “lifestyle”. Do you?

        • Nope, that’s not true. People choose sin mess and sin habits even when they KNOW that suffering can be a direct result.

          Otherwise those gay bath houses in San Francisco would have closed long BEFORE, instead of long AFTER, the huge explosion of AIDS.

        • @Engagerton,

          You need a Max-slap.

          Morality is doing what is right, no matter what you are told.
          Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right.

          The Alcoholic is doing something damaging to himself and others.
          The Gay person is doing nothing wrong or harmful.

          The Alcoholic can quit successfully and save himself.
          The Gay person has done nothing wrong or harmful.

          The Alcoholic may return to alcohol and die from it.
          The Gay person has done nothing wrong or harmful.

          Bring up another non-sequiter and we can play this game again.

          • Don't Push the Red Button

            Atheist Max, kudos bro – lovin’ your slams. You would make Jesus consider atheism!!!

          • Jamie Townsend

            Atheist Max, please consider doing a blog or something. You bring up some concise ways of summing up what is really going on with religion.

  3. My favorite fancy restauraunt, The Cracker Barrel, used to have a policy against hiring any gays or lebsians. They got rid of it for some reason, probably pressure from the Marxist Leftists with their anti-Christian agenda.

    But it was a pretty good policy and I would be sure to patronize any business that adopted a similar policy today. The Constitution gaurantees us the right to practice our religious beliefs, and it does NOT guarantee gays and lesbians the right to earn money to feed and clothe themselves. Not at the expense of OUR BELIEFS. Our moral conscious tells us not to aid these people in their sin by giving them money. When they are homeless and hit rock bottom, they might then FIND JESUS.

    • ” The Constitution gaurantees us the right to practice our religious beliefs, and it does NOT guarantee gays and lesbians the right to earn money to feed and clothe themselves. ”

      Are you serious right now? Are you not a sinner? Are all not sinners? Do you have a chart that says which sins a person needs to commit in order to deny them a job or food to eat?

      You are an utterly disgusting human being. Go join the Taliban.

        • I am sorry to hear that, Frank. I really like your comments and think we are coming from the same place. I am praying that you will see the light and understand that my position on teh gay rights comes from love, not hate.

          • Sorry Ronald I cant get behind your statement above and I don’t believe Jesus is behind it either.

            We might agree on the sinfulness of homosexual behavior but we are all sinners and condemn ourselves to a life without compassion when we deny compassion to others. Does your sin preclude your right to work and be hired? Certainly some jobs have certain standards. We wouldn’t want a child molester to work with children or a practicing homosexual to work as a church leader but having someone who identifies as gay not be able to work at Cracker Barrel? That’s extreme and real bigotry.

          • @ronald,

            The Golden Rule:
            “Do not do to others what you would not have done to you”

            No GOD is required for the Golden Rule
            and most Atheists do an excellent job of following it.

            Just think: would you want your Gay grandchild treated the way you want to treat these Gay people? No you don’t.

            Yet Religion gives you permission and a command to kill gays
            “kill Homosexuals” (Lev. 20:13)

            And to abandon The Golden Rule
            and to be profoundly cruel.

            Everyone please take note of this.

    • Ronald, you are a disgusting example of a Christian.

      First of all, the Constitution guarantees all American citizens the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Therefore, it guarantees ALL Americans the right to earn money to feed and clothe themselves, gays and lesbians included.

      Second, the Constitution guarantees that everyone has the right to their own beliefs. So if you want to continue to believe your Nazi-like beliefs that some people are better than others, you have that right. You do NOT, however, have the right to force those beliefs onto anyone else. (If you are offended by the Nazi comment, remember that the Nazi party was based on Christianity as well.)

      I will pray for you that God will remove the hate and bigotry from your heart. Do not forget that God loves all His children, not some of them. Your statement shows you to be a hypocrite because you cannot be a Christian and yet refuse to love any of your fellow man. (Anyone who’s read the Bible knows how Jesus felt about hypocrites.) In the meantime, if you continue to believe what you believe, I recommend the Westboro Baptist Church.

      • I do not hate them. You sound like the Lamestream Lieberal Media, saying that Christian love is hate. If I hated them, I wouldnt care if they go to Hell for eternity.

        It is because I love them and want them to change they’re ways that I do not support their homosinuality.

        • Right. Because denying someone the right to earn money to feed and clothe themselves is love. I am not saying in any way that Christian love is hate. I am saying that what you are calling Christian love is hate. Jesus didn’t put any disclaimers on the end when he said to love your neighbor and to take care of the less fortunate.

          • @Shawnie

            So you are disagreeing with Ronald, that gays are worthy of scorn and discrimination because God condemns them?

            Or do you share such beliefs but object to the way its presented?

          • I have NO desire to see any LBGT scorned or discriminated against, and you would know that quite well by now if you had been listening even nearly as assiduously as you have been trying to tell me what I think.

            All Ronald is doing is taking every tired strawman and stereotype that you and your ilk bandy about and acting it out. He’s like your ventriloquist’s dummy.

          • Yet you constantly speak about how Christianity must condemn gays.

            Where is the difference here?

            Are you trying to say that it is wrong to implement your religious beliefs?

            It seems you want to proclaim what Christianity allegedly says but are too afraid to act on it or take such ideas to their logical conclusion.

            Ronald is a joke. But he is also parroting language said here on a regular basis.

          • Christianity condemns homosexuality, not homosexuals. Not the same thing. If it were, we would ALL stand condemned in one way or another. THAT is the logical conclusion of law minus grace.

            The only thing Ronald is parroting is the ignorance of anti-theists who are so sure they know what we think about everything.

            And if you know anything about me, Larry, it is that I am NOT afraid of speaking plainly.

          • A bit of a dodge isn’t it. You attack a person for what they are yet disassociate it as not attacking them.

            Either you speak coming from the delusional standpoint of homosexuality as merely a chosen behavior or are just looking for excuses to condemn others with a level of personal deniability.

            What is your point then really? Do you think people read your posts about Christianity and gays and not see it as an attack on them?

            Ronald is merely giving the same spiel but with less pretension or serious intent.

          • I’m not attacking any PERSON at all. We are not our behaviors. We choose to act or not act in accordance with God’s creative design and purposes–every day and in every way.

            Listen, don’t think I don’t get the difficulty here. Years ago when I was contemplating entering into an unscriptural marriage, those who loved me admonished me about the wrongness of it and of course I initially took it as an attack and countered with hostility in various forms. But now I understand that my hostility really stemmed from my deep-down sense that they were right. If someone were to suggest to me today that my marriage is not lawful, my reaction would simply be a smile, a shrug, and a have-a-nice-day. Because I have no moral doubts and therefore no need for outside affirmation. Interestingly, I do not see the same moral confidence in those screaming loudest about homophobia.

          • Shawnie5,

            ” But now I understand that my hostility really stemmed from my deep-down sense that they were right.”

            How ironic! I think one day you will feel the same way about your current hostility toward me. I get that my comments have touched a nerve and I am big enoug to accept your abusive comments in a spirit of Grace and Humility, as Christ calls upon all His followers to do, and I will pray for your angry and restless soul to be calmed.

          • You are weaselwording Shawnie. You are not attacking a person, you are attacking people in a general sense and trying to duck out of the consequences of it.

            All you are illustrating to me with your story of the “unscriptural marriage” story is your own personal weakness. How you caved in to the prejudices of your family at personal cost and how you rationalized it long after the fact. You continue to rationalize prejudices and personal weakness by falling back on “its not me, its the Bible”.

            “Interestingly, I do not see the same moral confidence in those screaming loudest about homophobia.”

            But you have no problem joining in on them in your own way. So there is no difference here.

          • Again, Larry, you’re trying to tell me what I think and feel–you must get over that if you wish to debate like an adult. The truth is that the loving counsel of friends and family could not really have swayed me. What made the difference was being unable to find any scriptural support for what I wanted to do. Some of my family didn’t really want me to marry my current husband, either, but in that case I was free of moral reservations and therefore had no reason to listen or react. The point is, of course, that in neither instance was the disapproval of my actions an actual attack upon ME–these were the very people who loved me the most–and that I initially took it that way said more about me and the shaky moral and scriptural ground I was on at that time than it did about them.

            “But you have no problem joining in on them in your own way.”

            How? By maintaining that homosexual behavior is inconsistent with biblical Christianity? Well, guilty as charged. It is, as any biblical scholar who is not John Boswell can plainly see. But because it is I have no need to bellow Bigot or (Fill-in-the-blank)-Phobe at those who disagree with me, or invade gays’ discussion forums and tell them what horrible people they are, or boycott businesses whose leaders disagree with me, or initiate lawsuits to punish people for not pretending to agree with me, and the list goes on.

          • “By maintaining that homosexual behavior is inconsistent with biblical Christianity? ”

            And ultimately what is your point of such a position?

            You bring it up whenever someone talks about Christian churches which do not discriminate against gays or when one challenges the idea that Christianity requires discrimination against them. What are you suggesting here as a course of action?

            Your inability to complete the thought or show true intentions here doesn’t bode well for your claims of honest intentions or speaking plainly.

            “Some of my family didn’t really want me to marry my current husband, either, but in that case I was free of moral reservations and therefore had no reason to listen or react. The point is, of course, that in neither instance was the disapproval of my actions an actual attack upon ME–these were the very people who loved me the most–and that I initially took it that way said more about me and the shaky moral and scriptural ground I was on at that time than it did about them.”

            Then you are delusional or rationalizing. The idea that scripture forces one hand to act in a certain way is nothing more than excuse-making. Scripture is always used as a post-facto justification for one’s ideas. Everyone who claims to follow it, follows it to their own interpretations. Your family did attack you personally, you just didn’t want to consider it as such. Anyone who looks for scriptural excuses why people should not be together is really just excusing their own personal views.

          • “And ultimately what is your point of such a position?”

            The point is that we as Christians should not participate in same-sex behavior in any fashion nor give our approval to such behavior in general. Problem?

            “Scripture is always used as a post-facto justification for one’s ideas.”

            LOL! What is that? One of the four laws of thermodynamics? It is merely your own personal assumption, pulled from your own personal a**, and a nonsensical one at that. I did not want for Jesus to have said “whoever divorces his wife except for fornication and marries another commits adultery” (His disciples didn’t like that particular statement either, btw–they immediately declared celibacy preferable to a commitment that airtight), but He did and out of love and loyalty to Him I accept it. It’s just one example of what He was talking about when He exhorted us to deny ourselves and take up the cross, whatever the cross may be.

            “Anyone who looks for scriptural excuses why people should not be together is really just excusing their own personal views.”

            If as an atheist you do not place any value on scripture then of course it would be hard for you to get your mind around the degree to which it lights the paths of those who do. But you’re hardly in a position to be taken seriously when you suggest that we simply ignore it or, worse yet, lie about it in order to be do as we please or be liked by others. Are we supposed to ho-hum at best, or celebrate at worst, the myriad sins that we believe put Jesus on the cross for us? That’s ridiculous.

            Jesus’ cousin John the Baptist, whom He declared to have been the greatest of all men up until Himself, lost his head to the apostate king and queen by shooting straight and honest with them about the unlawfulness of their “marriage.” And not because he made it all up, either — but because they knew he was right.

          • “The point is that we as Christians should not participate in same-sex behavior in any fashion nor give our approval to such behavior in general. Problem?”

            This is the first time you said something remotely reflecting an honest view. Still couched by euphemism and generalities, but still clear.

            So what is the acceptable way to show disapproval to such behavior to you?

            Banning them from workplaces, shunning them by families, attacking their civil liberties, refuse to do business with them, ban their children from attending the same schools as yours, banning them from a given church, threatening to cut off funding to charities if they disagree with your views?

            That is what everyone does when they claim to “show disapproval to homosexual behavior”. Just the sort of thing Ronald parodied. Why should you be treated differently?

            You don’t want to discriminate, but you really do. You want to single gays out for admonishment but you seem too afraid to actually illustrate what form that should take.

            “If as an atheist you do not place any value on scripture then of course it would be hard for you to get your mind around the degree to which it lights the paths of those who do”

            Not so. I see how people allegedly place value on scripture. There is a great deal of dishonesty to your claim that one can find excuses for one’s behavior by claiming you are merely following scriptures. Somehow God agrees with all of their actions. What a coincidence. You chose to interpret it in the way you find acceptable. You are wedded to the fiction that the Bible has a singular interpretation for all things. It is the delusion of the fundamentalist. Myriad of sects of Christianity give lie to the idea (unless you are meglomaniacal enough to say none of them are real Christians)

            “Jesus’ cousin John the Baptist, whom He declared to have been the greatest of all men up until Himself, lost his head to the apostate king and queen by shooting straight and honest with them about the unlawfulness of their “marriage.” And not because he made it all up, either — but because they knew he was right.”

            That is your interpretation and you are welcomed to it. There is no compelling reason I have to consider it the only one available.

          • “This is the first time you said something remotely reflecting an honest view”

            Nothing I’ve said has been dishonest or unclear. If it appears so, perhaps this is the first time you actually listened.

            “That is what everyone does when they claim to “show disapproval to homosexual behavior”.

            No it isn’t. It’s a caricature created by people like you and Ronald. Of course I’d love for gays to come to our church! I would not have them banned from any kind of employment (except perhaps a pastorship or a leadership position where their actions might reasonably be taken by outsiders as representative of the church). I would not vote directly in favor of gay marriage because I can not vote for the institutionalization of sin, but it doesn’t really matter to me personally if ALL the states adopt gay marriage. And I would most certainly (and have done) do business with them in any fashion that did not necessitate my participation in a gay wedding event. As for the charities, I wouldn’t drop a commitment I’d already made but if choosing between a number of charitable options I’d probably go with the one that does the most good while best staying faithful to the way of the cross.

            “Somehow God agrees with all of their actions. What a coincidence. You chose to interpret it in the way you find acceptable.”

            No wonder you have such a need to tell everyone what they think. Should you run across someone who doesn’t fit into the pat assumption from which you operate then your whole world falls apart. The only alternative is that we are being “dishonest.” Thank you at least for a glimpse into the mind of the chronic strawman afcicionado. But you’re still wrong. I don’t read the scriptures in the way that appeals to me (in some instances, just the opposite) but in the way that makes the most sense and has the most historical support behind it, which can be easily gathered from the history and writings of the early church.

            “You are wedded to the fiction that the Bible has a singular interpretation for all things. It is the delusion of the fundamentalist. ”

            That is not the definition of a fundamentalist. And of course we know that there are many passages with dual meanings and even some ambiguous points upon which we may reasonably differ (annihilationism vs. eternal hell is one of these, in which I am currently quite interested). But just as “do not lie with a man as with a woman” does not mean “the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain” it also obviously does not mean “do not lie with a man as with a woman — unless you really want to.”

            “That is your interpretation and you are welcomed to it. There is no compelling reason I have to consider it the only one available.”

            Do have one of your own to offer, perhaps? Or is your contribution limited to telling me that mine is wrong?

          • BTW, Larry, have you ever discussed with your friend Max your concerns about his “megalomania,” being that he routinely dismisses certain unattractive but very strongly-professed atheists as “not REAL atheists???”

          • @Shawnie,

            ANYONE who does not believe in a god is an Atheist.

            Your usual suspects which you repeatedly claim were atheists do not qualify.
            Stalin repeatedly was involved in God beliefs even at the end of his life. Icons appear all over the Russian Orthodox Church featuring Stalin with a HALO.
            That is not Atheism.

            As for Hitler – he was basically Jesus with a machine gun:
            “Execute them in front of me” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

      • You obviously have not read the constitution. There is nothing about the pursuit of happiness at all in it. There is no right to “seek freedom” in the constitution.

    • Don't Push the Red Button

      Um…ron,
      “My favorite fancy restauraunt, The Cracker Barrel…”
      I always wondered what the fox news crowd meant by ‘fancy.’ Thanks for that. How did you ever think Mitt Romney would share any of your interests?

  4. Carol J. Smith

    Nancy, Let me first say what an excellent article you have written here regarding LGBT rights and protections in America. I lost a job in the 1980’s because I was a lesbian. And, to think we are still struggling 30 yrs later for the equality to work and support ourselves . This is because of ignorance, hatred and fear. To the comments judging LGBT persons: I love to read Romans Chapter three. All of it. Especially verses 22-24: “For the righteousness of God is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe; for there is no difference; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.” I believe in Jesus Christ and I am redeemed through faith! Amen!

  5. And by the way, if anybody from Team Obama is reading this thread, you better tell your slimy boss that he has clearly betrayed the United States of America.

    (Actually more than once, if you keep up with the headlines, but let’s not quibble!)

    Your gay-activist boss has proven that he needs to be IMPEACHED, after first spending some quality time at ADX Federal Supermax Prison !!!!!

  6. No legitimate linkage between Nazism and Christianity. The Nazi’s used Christianity among other social paradigms as a mask and subterfuge for their true beliefs and activities, which were more genuinely linked with paganism and ancient Teutonic mythologies. To totalitarian regimes any tool is useful until it isn’t. The Constitution guarantees (sic) “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Liberty and Happiness are malleable constructs which mean different things to different people. The Constitution cannot and does not guarantee Jobs, Health, Food, or Shelter, simply the individual right to pursue them.

    • “No legitimate linkage between Nazism and Christianity. ”

      Except for the numerous appeals Nazis made to Christian churches, the open collaboration of all German and occupied European churches to the Nazis (except for the Danish Lutheran Church) and the Nazi supported forced conversion to Catholicism done by collaborationist Croatians in 1944.

      At least 3 groups of people joined the Nazi cause based purely on appeals to Catholicism, the Belgian Rexists, Spanish Falangists and Croatian Ustasha.

      You don’t really know your history.

      ” To totalitarian regimes any tool is useful until it isn’t. ”

      And religion has been a useful tool for totalitarian regimes from its inception. Be they kings who have “divine right to rule” to modern theocratic governments run by clerics.

      • Co-option of vested “church” interests by thugs does not reflect legitimate Christianity; Niemoller and Bonhoffer were both late, but better late than never. Many genuine Christians risked all on behalf of persecuted jews, i.e. Corrie Ten Boom and her family. You fail to make the distinction between those who genuinely held to the transcendent requirements of their faith, and those who were cowardly or simply failed in their faith, and those whose Christianity was a mere facade. And you fail to address the fact that the true ideology of the Nazi’s was based on Teutonic mythology with no link to Christianity. Totalitarians use what works…and yes, religion sometimes works to totalitarian ends, but Christianity as delineated by Christ and His disciples is merely the only authentic legitimate faith based system by which
        humanity may be saved.

        • Well said. It’s nice to find the truth spoken for once. So many people believe any bad rumor they hear and then they repeat it.

          I suggest that everyone go read “Hitler’s religion” on wikipedia. Very interesting.

          • @Engagerton,

            WIKIPEDIA? shameful.
            You need an education.

            I suggest you read MEIN KAMPF.
            I still have my dog-eared copy from high school 40 years ago.

            It was written by Hitler. YOU MAY have heard of it.
            THAT is where you learn what Hitler
            actually said and believed.

            “Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition.”
            -Adolf Hitler
            (Mein Kampf) p.81

            “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
            -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

            RELIGIOUS LIFE IS THE HIGHEST IDEAL
            “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.”
            – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 1

            CHRISTIANITY WILL BE THE GERMAN REICH
            “As long as leadership from above was not lacking, the people fulfilled their duty and obligation overwhelmingly. Whether Protestant pastor or Catholic priest, both together and particularly at the first flare, there really existed in both camps but a single holy German Reich, for whose existence and future each man turned to his own heaven.”
            – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 3

            SIGNIFICANCE OF THE RELIGION OF LOVE
            “The more abstractly correct and hence powerful this idea will be, the more impossible remains its complete fulfillment as long as it continues to depend on human beings… If this were not so, the founders of religion could not be counted among the greatest men of this earth… In its workings, even the religion of love is only the weak reflection of the will of its exalted founder; its significance, however, lies in the direction which it attempted to give to a universal human development of culture, ethics, and morality.”
            – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

            PERSONIFICATION OF THE DEVIL IS THE JEW
            ….the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.
            – Adolf Hitler (following the position of Martin Luther), Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

            STOP THE ATHEISTS. CHRISTIANS SHALL KILL THOSE WHO WON’T ACCEPT THEIR KING.
            “And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary, He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests. But at that time Christ was nailed to the Cross for his attitude towards the Jews; whereas our modern Christians enter into party politics and when elections are being held they debase themselves to beg for Jewish votes. They even enter into political intrigues with the atheistic Jewish parties against the interests of their own Christian nation.
            – Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

            —-

            “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            And so the band plays on.

          • “WIKIPEDIA? shameful.
            You need an education.”

            Oh absolutely. Like atheism@about.com–which is where Captain Cut-and-Paste here gets most of his stuff.

            Why pay a university to teach you history, theology, political science, or philosophy when there are plenty of atheist propaganda sites out there perfectly ready and willing to tell you what to think?

          • Not me. I am a regular subscriber to Military History Quarterly and huge fan of the books of Max Hastings and Anthony Beevor. World War 2 is a subject I have done tons of personal research into.

            An interesting source is the series on American Heroes Channel “Nazi Collaborators”. It constantly refers to links between Pro-Nazi forces and religious institutions. Especially in the episodes concerning Belgium and Croatia. Where specifically Catholic appeals were instrumental in recruiting people to fight for the Nazis. In Croatia they were useful to promote mass murder of Serbs and Jews. The methods employed by the Croatian collaborators were so brutal even SS observers found them a bit much. (I wish I was making that up)

          • @Shawnie,

            How about you show me where is this “cut and paste” nonsense!
            I have never heard of the ‘atheist’ websites you refer to!

            And if the comment section allowed it I WOULD SHOW YOU a jpeg of my copy of Mein Kampf!

            While you simply CUT AND PASTE all of the Bible claims right onto your BRAIN without question, I study whether they could be true or not using all sorts of outside references.

            Whatever else you do, don’t call your CUT AND PASTE of Bible claims onto your brain deserving of respect.

          • Max, for the pure fun of it I have taken a number of your comments which smelled of C & P, copied them into google search, and found them word for word on atheism@about.com. Also other clone sites like nogods, evilbible, infidels and the like, all recycling the same drivel. It’s nothing new — there are thousands like you all over the internet.

        • No true scotsman arguments do not refute the actions of entire churches nor do you get to define what is “legitimate Christianity”.

          It took more than a decade after the war for the Catholic Church to disavow the anti-Semitic rhetoric which the Nazis used so well. The Lutheran Church still hasn’t acknowledged such things. It was ingrained into the teachings of Christendom for centuries. Without it, the Nazis would have faced a tougher time getting collaborators and willing participants in atrocities.

          The “righteous gentiles” are hardly a typical example of Christianity during the war. People took great personal risks to prevent atrocity despite the exhortations of their churches and religious doctrines. You simply want to take credit for Christianity when it is something positive but ignore it when they did something atrocious. Typical apologetic dishonesty.

          “And you fail to address the fact that the true ideology of the Nazi’s was based on Teutonic mythology with no link to Christianity. ”

          That isn’t true either. At best it was a PR tool to make Nazis feel superior to others and to stage really photogenic events and posters. There were no Teutonic churches set up. Nobody ordained in such religious beliefs. Btw Teutonic mythology has a huge link to Christianity. Christianity appropriated and subsumed a lot of such things to appeal to Northern Europeans.

          You are really ignorant of history.

          “Totalitarians use what works…and yes, religion sometimes works to totalitarian ends”

          Sometimes? Try all the time. Religion is essential to supporting totalitarians. Be they fascists or communists. Stalin merely appropriated religious belief to direct it towards himself. Christianity being replaced with the cult of personality. Same modes of worship. Same methods of creating group hysterics. Same irrational rhetoric. The act of worship makes the job of dictators easier.

        • @Shawnie,

          “there are plenty of atheist propaganda sites out there perfectly ready and willing to tell you what to think?”

          1. Nobody tells me what to think.
          2. Hilarious. Your idea of my “Atheist propaganda” websites of the internet. All of which I study regularly:
          Charlie Rose website,
          The Bible,
          The Quran,
          The 700 Club website,
          Jimmy Swaggart website,
          Creflo Dollar website,
          Save America Ministries,
          The Catholic Sensibility Blogs
          Website of the Catholic Church
          The Boston Globe Archives
          The New York Times Archives
          The Creationist Museum website
          Freudarchives.org
          The Heritage Foundation

          So what if I read “God is imaginary”
          and “Evil Bible” ?

          So WHAT?

          I stopped believing in God LONG BEFORE
          I ever met ‘Atheist Propaganda’.

          My problem with ‘Atheist Propaganda’ is that
          it isn’t written well enough!
          It would have been a huge relief to me
          if it hadn’t taken 44 for Atheism to reach me!

      • Where do you get this stuff?

        “Except for the numerous appeals Nazis made to Christian churches, the open collaboration of all German and occupied European churches to the Nazis (except for the Danish Lutheran Church) and the Nazi supported forced conversion to Catholicism done by collaborationist Croatians in 1944.”

        The fact that the Nazis pretended to be religious – until they actually got in power – is irrelevant. There was no open collaboration of the churches – are you crazy? They sent 5000 polish priests to the death camps. They closed every seminary in Poland. They were constantly harassing the churches in Germany and in the occupied lands.

        • Unlike yourself I looked it up from serious sources not apologetic bullcrap. You deal with ignorant generalities in light of mountains of evidence to the contrary.

          They did more than pretend to be religious. They engaged in Christian churches to ensure collaboration and volunteers. As I mentioned, which you clearly ignored several collaborationist groups were specifically Christian in nature.

          As for the Polish priests, the Nazis killed as many Poles in professions which could not be used directly for the machinery of war. All intellectuals, religious figures, anyone with an education in something other than practical manufacturing skills was a target. They did the same thing to the USSR as well.

          “They were constantly harassing the churches in Germany and in the occupied lands.”

          Not really. Except for the Danish churches, everyone else either sat tight or joined along. Especially Catholic Churches.

        • @Engagerton,

          “the Nazis pretended to be religious”

          You call the killing of 6 million Jews only ‘pretending’?

          “bring to me those enemies of mine and EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

          They were the most obedient Christians since the Crusades!

    • Unfortunately, Ms. Wilson does not grasp the real problem. Now that gays have become a very militant, very litigious group, people will not want to hire them because they are bound to start suing you sooner or later. Unfortunately, all Obama has done is insure people will be less likely to hire gays. They will not be obvious about it. They just won’t hire gays. Before this gay marriage stuff, we were at the point where there were no problems with hiring a gay person – they were viewed as good human beings who could do the job – but now they will be seen as a definite legal risk. Whereas before an employer was likely to feel positive about a prospective gay employee (Let’s hire him, let’s give the guy a break) now gays will be seen as employees that can quickly get an employer into trouble, and will probably end up suing you.

      Congratulations.

      • So militant in asking for things like not being fired from their jobs, discriminated in open commerce, evicted from their homes and to have the ability to raise families in a sane manner.

        How horrible and unreasonable of them!

        So many good Christians used being gay as a pretext to firing employees and still do. Now they have to worry about being sued for discrimination. The horror! No longer having the legally sanctioned ability to discriminate.

      • @Engagerton,

        “Let’s hire him, let’s give the guy a break”

        Gosh. How kind of you.
        Especially considering what your God told you to do.
        “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death…” (Lev 20:13)

        But since you completely reject God’s Law 100%,
        on what do you basis do you justify punishment of Gays at all?

      • @Engagerton,

        you said, “Now that gays have become a very militant…”
        Hilarious.

        Militant Muslim: Osama Bin Laden
        Militant Christian: Adolph Hitler
        Militant Jew: Ze’ev Jabotinsky

        Militant Homosexual: Elton John

        Religion is a disgrace.

    • @Diogenes,

      1. It is the Declaration of Independence NOT the Constitution which claims the RIGHT to “Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness”. The Constitution is an attempt to make these rights into the laws of the land.

      2. All totalitarianism is fundamentally THEOCRATIC.
      Totalitarianism necessarily claims ‘total ownership’ of each person from birth to death. Only the United States Constitution rejects the possibility of THEOCRACY. All other countries grant ownership of the people to a god and through that ownership onto God’s representatives in the State (Aliyat Al Faqui) Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and North Korea being the most didactic practicers of this.

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