VATICAN CITY (RNS)  The Vatican is warning that the alleged rejection of a baby born with Down syndrome to a surrogate mother in Thailand shows how babies have become consumer products for sale.

Surrogate mother Pattaramon Chanbua, a 21-year-old street vendor, made headlines around the world after claiming she is caring for 7-month-old Gammy, who also has a congenital heart defect, because his biological parents from Australia abandoned him in Thailand.

She has claimed the couple took Gammy’s healthy twin sister home but left him behind. The father, David John Farnell, and his wife have told the media they did not know of the boy’s existence.

“We should not be surprised if parents who have ordered a baby and rented a woman’s womb refuse it at birth if it is not healthy and perfect,” said an article published in the Vatican’s semiofficial newspaper, L’Osservatore Romano.

“In fact if a child becomes a product to buy, it is obvious that as with any acquisition it must meet with the buyer’s approval.”

The strongly worded commentary was written by prominent Catholic feminist and regular contributor Lucetta Scaraffia, who argued the child’s rejection was to be expected in the “explosive mix” of consumerism combined with a “throwaway culture.”

“Now everyone is indignant, or making a show of being indignant,” Scaraffia said. “In reality there is little to be indignant about — if you accept the logic that a child is a product this is the obvious consequence. We should not treat it as an isolated case.”

According to Australian media reports, child protection authorities have launched an investigation into the father’s record, which reportedly includes 22 child sex convictions, including unlawful and indecent dealing with girls dating back to the 1980s.

KRE/MG END McKENNA

58 Comments

  1. How can this be a surprise when in the US alone over 27k innocent unborn children are killed each week mostly for reasons of convenience and comfort. Throw away culture indeed.

    • GOD HATES DEFORMED and HANDICAPPED PEOPLE

      “For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his testicles or penis broken. No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the Lord made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God.”
      (Leviticus 21:18-21)

      • Atheist Max, this description of old testament sacrifice in Leviticus is best understood as a prefiguration of the spotless lamb, Jesus, who will offer himself both as priest and victim on the altar of the cross. Reading it outside of the context of the faith is the only way to arrive at your absurd conclusion.

        • samuel Johnston

          Hi Paul,
          “best understood as a prefiguration of the spotless lamb, Jesus”
          Yes a prefiguration, otherwise known as reading something out of context. Using a literary tool (foreshadowing) as a historical tool is really, really, (really) dishonest (really).

        • @Paul,

          Thousands of generations have been bullied by this ‘god’ yet
          nobody wants to call it bullying! The truth is, these texts are permission for and injunctions to – do some really harsh bullying.

          “I and the Lord are one” – Jesus

          Regardless of the law – Christians need to understand that the same god who they are told to love would have to be the author of this garbage.

          It is as if the son of Charles Manson said,
          “Love me, I’m the same as my dad but I’m here to clear up his bad name.”

      • So, Athiest Max, what do you make of this passage:
        As (Jesus) passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. And his disciples asked him, ‘Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?’ Jesus answered, ‘It was not that this man sinned or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.’ (John 9:1-3)
        Proves you WRONG!

        • @HsMom,

          All you have proven is that Jesus and God are not actually the same god.

          God hates and rejects the handicapped (Leviticus 21:18-21)
          Jesus says god uses handicapped people as tools for instruction (John 9:1-3)

          Both are cruel and primitive ideas regarding the handicapped.
          But Jesus is directly opposed to God’s Law that they be blameless.

          However, later Jesus lied:
          “not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law…” – Jesus (Matt. 5:17-18)

          So – Jesus speaks out of both sides of his mouth!

          • @hsMom,

            Here is your problem (not mine)

            God claims there is only one god and he is perfect.
            Jesus claims he is god.
            But Jesus rejects many of God’s so called perfect laws !
            Why change so many laws if they were perfect before?
            And why not improve them better?

            Jesus gave Peter the clear idea that slavery as a good thing!
            “Slaves, be subject to your masters with all reverence, not only to those who are good and equitable but also to those who are perverse.” (1 Peter 2:18)

            Christianity is a blunder. The whole thing can only be some sort of wild misunderstanding

    • Jesus and Yahweh agree 100% of the time.
      Jesus and Yahweh are the same God. Right?
      “I and the Lord are one” – Jesus (John 10:30)

      Because if God and Jesus don’t agree then
      they
      would be two separate gods
      with opposing (yet equally perfect?) ideas.

      AND GOD SAID – I HATE ‘BITCHED’ CHILDREN.
      “A bitched shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the Lord.”
      (Deuteronomy 23:2)

      A bitched is someone who was born outside of wedlock.
      So that shows how much god cares about this.

        • Not as embarrassing as Christians who put such literalistic interpretations of the Old Testament to use in order to:

          1. Justify bigotry
          2. Justify legalized discrimination
          3. Attack science education
          4. Attack the ability of women to get proper healthcare
          5. Attack the ability to plan for families
          6. Justify treating women as second class citizens
          7. Justify abusive and obnoxious behavior

        • @Paul,

          Literalistic? Excuse me?
          I presume you don’t mean this to be literalistic:

          “He is Risen”

          When did you get the memo about what is literal and what is ‘metaphor’ and where is it written which is which in the Bible?

          “Truly truly I tell you unless you eat of my body and drink of my blood…”

          Where are the memos which clear up what is literal and what is metaphor?

          “I am the door…” – Jesus

          Where then is the door knob?

          “Execute them” – Jesus (Luke 19:27)

          Isn’t it our job to decide these things? And when we make those decisions are we not admitting that the Bible is not the Authority on these questions?

          WE ARE THE ONES WHO DECIDE WHAT IS TRUE. YOUR INTERPRETATION IS JUST AS DANGEROUS AS MINE.

          IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN OUR WILL – OUR DECISION –
          TO READ THESE TEA LEAVES AND DELUDE OURSELVES
          THAT THE AUTHORITY RESTED ON JESUS
          WHEN INSTEAD IT WAS ALWAYS ON THE READER.

          You pick the verse and you decide its veracity, it function and its assignment – then YOU decide.

          It feels like GOD told you – but it was you all along.

        • @Paul,

          Tell me. Is this literal or not:

          “Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
          (Matthew 27:51-53)

          Because if this LITERALLY HAPPENED then the resurrection of Jesus is not important. Resurrections were a banality, and their purpose is lost to time.

          If it did NOT LITERALLY HAPPEN then why believe the resurrection of Jesus is somehow literal?

          If you can’t answer this I’ll assume you agree that
          The Bible is unintelligible, self-cancelling, incoherent nonsense.

          • @hsmom,

            “You need to get a better understanding”

            GREAT – Teach me!

            “the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.”
            (Matthew 27:51-53)

            #1 – Do you believe this LITERALLY happened?
            #2 – Do you believe it did NOT LITERALLY happen?

            Please choose and — EXPLAIN your choice.

  2. be neat if that kid make a full recovery (miracle) and goes on to great things..bet mom and dad would try to wiggle there way back into his life then..entire world is just sick..

  3. The Great God Pan

    This case is an outlier, a definite “man bites dog” story. In reality, abandoning disabled babies is a traditional value, while taking care of them is an innovation of modern, wealthy, Western nations.

    What does the Vatican think happened to Down Syndrome babies in medieval Europe, before the advent of so-called “throwaway culture?” There’s a reason these kids were barely written about or depicted prior to the 19th century.

    • Umm….were you there in medieval Europe? ‘The Great God Pan”?
      Me thinks not….here’s evidence from AD500 that people with Ds were included in society:

      http://www.disabilityscoop.com/2014/07/15/oldest-down-syndrome-insights/19513/

      Here’s a link to a Flemish painting from the late 1800′s that clearly includes someone with Down syndrome….
      http://downwiththat.blogspot.com/2010/12/angel-and-shepherd-with-down-syndrome.html

      Abandoning babies is NOT a traditional value….traditional values valued all life….your mentality of abandoning human babies is a perverted sick twisted and demented product of modern wealthy western nations. You have it backward!

      • “Abandoning babies is NOT a traditional value”

        Actually it is. Abandoning babies by churches, monasteries, convents, orphanages or on heavily traveled roads has a long storied tradition. No foster care system back then. :)

        “your mentality of abandoning human babies is a perverted sick twisted and demented product of modern wealthy western nations”

        Except every culture does this. You are simply preferring the rose colored glasses to the clear ones.

      • @HsMom,

        “your mentality of abandoning human babies is a perverted sick twisted and demented product of modern wealthy western nations.”

        You are wrong.

        1. GOD COMMANDS KILLING THE SWEET LITTLE BABIES:

        “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.” (Isaiah 13:15)
        Jesus agrees completely and validates the law: (JOHN 1:17), (Mark 10:19)

        2. GOD PROMISES ABORTIONS BY THE MILLIONS:

        “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer… Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, YET WILL I SLAY even the beloved fruit of their womb.” (Hosea 9:11-16)

        3. JESUS SAYS – KILL THE CHILDREN.

        Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?!….‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’(Matthew 15:3).

        99% of possible babies don’t happen – because they are naturally aborted.

        Besides, there is no ‘sanctity of human life’ in the Bible.
        Most of God’s Commandments are all addressed to benefit
        wealthy Property owners – not the poor or the downtrodden.

  4. Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    Read some real, instead of biased history.
    According to most real historians Christianity triumphed over the pagan Roman Empire because Christians were adamantly pro-life. And that included caring for the very sick or disabled In fact, some of the most dramatic stories from the Middle Ages involve saints caring for the sick. To even be an example for others to follow in compassion, St. Francis of Assisi kissed a leper (a disease believed to be horribly contagious.)
    And abandoning babies of any sort was what pagans did, not Christians.

    • @Deacon John,

      It is true that early Christians seemed to practice a new idea of what a god could be like. The notion that a god could ‘sanctify’ humanity by becoming human himself was a compelling story of dignifying the human body and make it ‘sacred’ – and one could argue that it led to better treatment for certain members of society.

      This would have been a very subversive idea 2000 years ago when the world was run by kings and fiefdoms.

      But Christianity ultimately fails because, like all religions, it is built on man-made ingredients which expire as society changes.

      Islam, with its complete surrender to an all encompassing fantasy, is far more useful today as a counterweight to the onward rush of science with its profound unmet challenges and responsibilities.

    • “According to most real historians Christianity triumphed over the pagan Roman Empire because Christians were adamantly pro-life.”

      This is biased history.

      Christianity triumphed over Pagan Rome because it was able to raise an army and incorporate barbarian tribes into it more easily. Many of whom were already Christianized by the time of Constantine. The whole “Christianity was more moral than the pagans, therefore triumphed” is propaganda which belonged mostly to the 19th Century.

      “And abandoning babies of any sort was what pagans did, not Christians.”

      Abandoning children was still a regular practice even until the 20th century. Churches, monasteries and convents facilitated the practice.

    • To the question of “The Great God PanAugust” on “What does the Vatican think ..”, your response is apt. Since Jesus revelaed God as Loving Father and set a new law of LOVE (correcting some of the oldtestament lows), the Catholic Church has been practicing this law by many acts over the darkages, middle ages, 18th 19th 20th centuries to present day. As we get more realtime Saints like Mother Theresa, John Paul II, our knowledge is limited to present day and a max to the immediate past – I know abt Fr. Damian as a Great man from childhood – who gave his whole life for lepercy patients thrown to the Monoco islands. So, the thought and action of the Church is in correct direction.

      So, the real question is abt whther the world of humans – over dark/middle/past/present ages of history – do realy learn anything and change the way?
      Who forced the lepers in mass to the island? It was the decision of a well civilized nation – to save its healthy population from the risk!!

      Today also the same story continue..

        • God has only one law – “Love and care for everyone and everything” – it never change; But we human cant understand it fully at any time of the history – eventoday; That is why we do something today – thinking it is good – but many years later prove to be a disaster (eg:- environment destruction and Global climate change)

          All other laws are made for humans of a specific time and social context. When the context changes, the law also need to change.

          • @Jo,

            “God has only one law – ‘Love and care for everyone and everything’”

            That is absolutely ridiculous.
            You are just making up a god in your head
            that fits your happy thoughts for today.
            This is sinister.

            There is not the SLIGHTEST evidence that God has ‘only one law’.
            God has produced a phone book full of laws called ‘The Bible’.

            The Bible is a volcano of contradictory, blood spattered, anti-human, enslaving, women hating, man hating GARBAGE.

            You cannot hijack the
            Atheist Humanist message of brotherly love and the ancient (GODLESS) golden rule which pre-dates Jesus by CENTURIES!

            …And then claim it is equal to this trash:
            “Execute them in front of me.”- Jesus (Luke 19:27)

          • @Jo,

            “When the context changes, the law also need to change.”

            So a long time ago it was good to rape?
            (“save the virgin slaves for yourselves” – God)

            It was good to enslave people?
            (“keep them and their children for your permanent personal property” – God)

            It was good to commit genocide?
            (“I the lord will help you and you will slay every one of them, even the unborn in their wombs” – God)

            It was good to stay with an abusive sex master?
            (“Slave, do not run to freedom, obey your masters even if they are perverse”)

            You are arguing in favor of Hitler!
            And you are insulting the intelligence of every person
            Who reads these comments!

    • Leprosy isn’t just ‘believed’ to be horribly contagious…it is very contagious! Just ask Fr Damien of Molokai! That doesn’t mean that we have to not care for them…we just have to be careful and follow protocols!

  5. samuel Johnston

    The is little question that Christian zeal for nursing the sick was a factor in their conversion successes in the cities of Second and Third century Rome. These crowded cities were almost always breeding grounds for diseases and plagues – mostly related to sanitation problems- and ignorance. The populace often panicked, and left the sick to their fate. Christians, many of whom did not fear death because they were convinced that the return of their Savior was imminent, nursed the sick and dying and those who survived often became converts.
    This selfless Christian behavior became less of a factor after Christianity became the State religion.
    The Middle Ages were a different kettle of fish. Trying to maintain that there was some consistently different better and more compassionate behavior by the general public during that period, is undermined by the complaints of the Saints themselves.

    • @samuel,

      “Trying to maintain that there was some consistently different better and more compassionate behavior by the general public during that period, is undermined by the complaints of the Saints themselves.”

      Well said.

  6. Perfectly healthy female infants are regularly discarded in places like China and India where the premium is on boys, why don’t western feminists scream about that? The only people I know working on behalf of these young victims are indigenous Christians and Christian missionaries. Healthy or not, beautiful or not, whole or not, all children are worthy of protection and care. THAT was Jesus’ message when He declared ‘Suffer the little children and forbid them not to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven.’

    • “Perfectly healthy female infants are regularly discarded in places like China and India where the premium is on boys, why don’t western feminists scream about that? ”

      They do, but its not like you are the type to be listening to them in the first place.

      Another thing feminists talk about which is soundly ignored by those of a “traditional religious” bent is widespread violence against women with social sanction.

      http://yapi.org/childrens-rights/discrimination-against-the-girl-child/.

      • that is probably because many of the so called feminists cant differentiate between “the rights of human babies to live and survive” and “the rights of feminists to get equal status with men”

      • As usual, you ignore substantive comments to make an ad hominem attack, since I’m occasionally guilty of ad hominem attacks when I’m angry, I guess I can’t judge you for that. However, you completely ignored the bulk of my statement which was advocacy for all children, wherever born, whatever sex, whatever condition.

  7. samuel Johnston

    This whole conversation began as a result of a generalized insult (throwaway culture) directed by the Vatican, indeed the Pope himself, against Western secular culture, in particular against the power and uses of medical science. Granted, there are serious issues as to proper use of medical technology, but to distract the public from the many, many, crimes of the Catholic leadership against children, they reach to the other end of the earth for their example.
    Its no accident that the term propaganda, originally applied to the activities and methods of an agency of the Vatican.

    • Hi Samuel,

      Throw away culture – eastern or western, some invneted it, many r cultivating it and rest of the world blindly follow it – that is a reality. Since this incident happened in Wset, it doesnt mean exclusively on “Western culture”. Even the well educated and advanced human rights adhering nations – over different ages of history – has been officially practicing different forms of this throw away culture – some modern day examples are “throwing away the lepers to Honolulu by the then Hawaii government”, “throwing away the Kurd Mulisms and Christians from their homes and towns in Iraq by ISIS(?) – happening as recent as this moment as I write this on Christian Era Aug 8th 2014″..

      So where do you find a generalized insult? If it is insulting, let it insult those who invented the throw away culture, those who cultivate it and those who blindly follow it!

  8. Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    One of history’s greatest chemists, biologists, and researchers was Louis Pasteur (for who pasteurization was named).He was also a very devout Catholic who prayed the rosary daily.
    I get the impression that some commenters here would find ways to attack any Catholic or Christian who dared to find a cure for cancer—- or Down syndrome.

    • samuel Johnston

      @Deacon John,
      Respond to what I write. Don’t make ignorant assumptions about my motives.
      My father, whom I loved dearly and with whom I had few disagreements, was a Methodist minister, as was my mother’s father. I attended church, rain or shine, until I went off to college – where I minored in Philosophy and religion. My Professor was a Dutch minister (PhD), with whom I had the most delightful discussions, often in his home. You appear have little familiarity with the world of ideas, religious or otherwise.

    • @Deacon John M. Bresnahan,

      “he prayed the rosary daily”

      You are not understanding the problem.

      Religion works against creativity and on medical and scientific exploration.
      And it promotes junk science (creationism) and junk philosophies (Mysogeny, Intelligent design, spirit realms, etc.)

      Do some people rise above this nonsense ?
      Of course! But that does not argue in favor of the nonsense!

      If Pasteur believed everything God provided were perfect, Pasteurization would not be needed and prayer would be enough!

      In order to accomplish his discoveries,
      Louis Pasteur had to ignore ALL of these religious injunctions:

      1. “What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.” (Deuteronomy 12:32)
      PASTEUR IGNORED THIS.

      2. “Thou shalt not covet” (Exodus)
      PASTEUR IGNORED THIS.

      3. “Every word of God [is] pure: he [is] a shield unto them that put their trust in him.” (Proverbs 30:5)
      PASTEUR IGNORED THIS.

      The process of Pasteurization improves ‘god’s food’ in many ways.
      If the bible wanted to be useful to civilization either it would have recommended Pasteurization somewhere in the commandments.

      Of course if God existed human improvements (like Pasteurization) would be nothing compared to his.

  9. Throwaway culture = western society.

    Western society =godless governments.

    I couldn’t agree more. We are absolutely capable of raising people who discard babies based on a handicap. As, you know, it will get in the way of their “freedom”.

    • Considering the genocide going on in Iraq against various religious minorities, as we speak, by people advocating religious based rule, Godless governments sound pretty good right now.
      http://www.religionnews.com/2014/08/07/islamic-state-accused-capturing-yazidi-women-forcing-convert-else/

  10. The REAL Dr. Xavier

    @Atheist Max and samuel Johnston, why exactly are you here, to troll or to engage in an actual dialogue? If you are somehow trying to prove that you are right simply because the Church has made some mistakes in the past, so what. Are you saying that other organizations shouldn’t exist or they are wrong because they have made mistakes in the past?
    Take that argument to Washington DC or to London or to any other Capital in the world, see how far you get with it. Okay, bye bye and good luck.

    • @The Real Dr. X,

      “Are you saying that other organizations shouldn’t exist or they are wrong because they have made mistakes in the past?”

      YES.

      I am saying
      that all of the evidence we see
      from THE RELIGIOUS NEWS SERVICE and other sources show
      that Religion is a cultural delusion and it is destroying civilization.

      Furthermore, I am saying Religion must be abandoned
      or at least more secularized very quickly – or we will all lose our freedoms in America.

      A well-financed Christian Corporate Oligarchy (Koch Brothers, Greens, etc) is emerging in the USA with support from Republican Cable News providers (not only Fox News) to introduce by fiat a series of religious laws in collusion with Evangelical Lobbies to challenge the Establishment Clause and other protections for alternate viewpoints on religion.

      This Christian movement is pushing very hard on
      a Christian theocracy in America. They are making progress because too few Atheists are speaking up against it.

      It is a matter of civil rights.
      Religion has done enough damage and it is time to speak up.

    • Deacon John M. Bresnahan

      According to the logic of some people here the United States should be eliminated because it once endorsed slavery, incarcerated Japanese Americans, dropped atomic bombs on 2 cities and other mistakes.

      • @Deacon John,

        1. I’m not saying religion should be ‘eliminated’. Don’t put words in my mouth – it should be ABANDONED as thousands of new Atheists abandon it every day.

        2. Religion isn’t evil just for the damage that it DID. Religion is evil for the damage it STILL DOES.*

        3. THE UNITES STATES GOVERNMENT is a flexible entity. It can grow and change and improve its laws to form ‘a more perfect union’.
        Religion has no such imperatives. Religion is fossilized garbage which refuses to change.

        *
        THE PRICE OF RELIGION
        HARM TO THE BELIEVERS THEMSELVES:

        - The harm of self-abnegation (I am nothing)

        - Death worship/hatred of one’s life

        - Self-denial for harmless joys: masturbation, sex dreams, normal lust.

        - Sexual self-repression, shame, guilt

        - The unfreedom of thought from the idea that a punishing god can see what you are doing and know what you are thinking

        - Compelled to Love that which you are enjoined to Fear; Sadomasochism and Stockholm Syndrome.

        - The destruction of personal responsibility through vicarious redemption. Prisons are full of Christians and Muslims; not Atheists.

        - The subversion of Love, our deepest human integrity by compelling it as a command.

        - The surrender to an unseen, unanswerable authority on all personal moral questions leading to chaotic and irrational behavior.

        - The complete subversion of freedom; a surrender to theocracy and totalitarian absolutes.

        - Corruption and destruction of moral integrity replaced by obedience and fear.

        TO NAME ONLY
        A FEW!

    • samuel Johnston

      @ Dr.Real,
      What a cowardly response! You cite nothing that I say, only deny my right to say it. You know my real name. What is yours? I am an American Protestant, and a licensed Attorney, descended from some of the original heretics (Presbyterian) who founded this nation. I do not need your permission to comment or judge the comments issued as challenges to Western society by the Vatican.
      “The Vatican is warning that the alleged rejection of a baby born with Down syndrome to a surrogate mother in Thailand shows how babies have become consumer products for sale. ”
      Warning whom? Am I warned? What does that mean? Do I get to respond?
      Are babies really consumer products for sale? If so where? Is this an attack on Thailand, Australia, the medical profession, the scientific /medical community?
      You “Take that argument to Washington DC or to London or to any other Capital in the world, see how far you get with it. Okay, bye bye and good luck.”
      This is the assumed arrogance of the lackey. Real power does not dismiss by bluster.
      No one can have dialogue with such an empty suit.

      • Gee Sam, You sound as angry as A. Max and Larry, which I thought was impossible. Most of the people who comment here are passionate about what they believe and are not generally amenable to persuasion. I usually try to be courteous and stick to specific identifiable arguments, but on this website for most of us they tend to be dismissed or ignored, whichever side of a given question one resides on. In many ways this site differs little from any other, are any of us really advancing the case for a common humanity? Perhaps not.

        • @Diogenes,

          “are any of us really advancing the case for a common humanity?”

          Billions of people are in desperation trying to solve real and practical problems: Poverty, Starvation, Women’s suffrage, Medical crises, etc.

          Religion plays a huge role in how we attack that suffering.
          Religion has a lot to do with why so many of these problem are persistent all across the globe.

          Speak your truth.
          If you believe in God explain why you do.

          The claims of religion are a mountain to climb –
          and in the name of God, who probably does not exist…

          millions are denied freedom (Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia)

          Denied their human rights (Alyat al Faqui – a person is owned by the Islamic state)

          Denied access to healthcare (Hobby Lobby is barely a tip of the iceberg)

          Denied proper education (junk science, creationism, madrases, intelligent design)

          Denied their natural sexuality (homosexuals are threatened in almost every country)

          Listen to the other side.
          Atheists are trying to shake people to a broader awareness.

  11. samuel Johnston

    Just thinking about my friends who tried unsuccessfully for years to have children, even with the best medical help (he is a doctor). They finally hired a surrogate mother (a U.S. nurse) who was implanted with their egg/sperm (do not ask me exactly how that procedure is performed). They now have a pair of beautiful healthy girls who are their own biological offspring.
    Obviously, I do not know what would have happened if one of these children had been born with a serious defect, but I do know that they took every precaution to insure a good result. I venture that most children born into this world naturally do not have as good a chance to live a life as healthy, and full of opportunity, as these girls.
    Back to the case the Vatican has made notorious. The “father” appears to be a criminal- the mother desperately poor. The whole matter is a nightmare that the Vatican is exploiting in its war against medical technology other than “natural” birth (just shut up and take your chances with everybody else).
    Medical knowledge is progressing rapidly. My family, like so many others, has some really nasty genes.
    If screening eggs and sperm, and zygotes will save children a lifetime of suffering, then angering a few bad tempered priests is a small price – which I am happy to pay.
    We can just drift along and accept suffering, or we can try to improve the situation, despite failure, criminality, and all our human limitations. The alternative is to retreat into fatalism.

  12. Deacon John M. Bresnahan

    I
    In the automobile commodity it takes huge numbers of cars for the flaw in the manufacture to uncover the need for a recall.
    Treat having children like commodities in large numbers and soon the flaws become apparent.
    Take abortion-on-request. A number of countries that allow abortions have discovered that the desire to have only male children is creating horrendously lop-sided numbers between male children born and female children born.
    And what does treating children as commodities on a large scale do to the value of human life culture of a country??? There have been plenty of cases where cultures have adopted values or practices that become deadly and even brainwash people to be blind to ultimate evil results. The Master Race theory is one of them (an evil theory that was embraced by many scientists before the theory was acted out on a large scale in history).

  13. samuel Johnston

    @Deacon John
    “Treat having children like commodities in large numbers and soon the flaws become apparent.”
    Do you think my friends treated their children like commodities? I see them as simply wanting the basics of life (to procreate). They used their resources to acquire the basics, not to pursue luxury lifestyles. They do not pose as loving parents- they are loving parents.
    Abortion is not the topic of this discussion, but you seem to want to make it so.
    Save that topic for another day.

  14. samuel Johnston

    Well, with the latest news we see that the Vatican was so anxious to condemn our modern, godless, material, society that has made children into a disposable commodity, that they did not bother to get the facts straight before they made public charges. The whole affair has degenerated into a he said/she/said swearing contest. The proof that the warning of “how babies have become consumer products for sale” is an overreach, is how each party to the “agreement” now trying to cast “blame” on the other, and denying that any willful abandonment has occurred. If the premise of the article were correct, then there would be no argument.
    More shameful and dishonest conduct from the would be teachers of “morality”.

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