(RNS) With celebrities, athletes and a handful of religious leaders on board, the ALS Ice Bucket Challenge has raised millions for research for ALS, better known as Lou Gehrig’s disease.

The ALS Ice Bucket Challenge (via Wikimedia Commons http://bit.ly/1pIx11B)

The ALS Ice Bucket Challenge. Photo courtesy of Wikimedia Commons

But some anti-abortion advocates are raising the alarm on whether the recipients of a charitable windfall are using the money to fund embryonic stem cell research. That’s a problem for some Catholics and evangelicals because the research had destroyed the embryos, which many consider a nascent form of human life.

Destroying the embryos, they say, is akin to abortion.

“Adult stem cell research is important and should be done alongside embryonic stem cell research as both will provide valuable insights,” a portion of the ALS Association website states. “Only through exploration of all types of stem cell research will scientists find the most efficient and effective ways to treat diseases.”

The Rev. Michael F. Duffy and Deacon Greg Kandra began to raise concerns on their blogs last week in posts that went viral.

In an email to Religion News Service, Carrie Munk, a spokeswoman for the ALS Association, said that the organization primarily funds adult stem cell research.

“Currently, The Association is funding one study using embryonic stem cells (ESC), and the stem cell line was established many years ago under ethical guidelines set by the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke (NINDS); this research is funded by one specific donor, who is committed to this area of research,” she said. “The project is in its final phase and will come to an end very soon.”

Some have suggested that embryonic stem cell research could eventually be phased out by other, less controversial research.

“Many labs have replaced ESCs with induced pluripotent stem cells (iPS cells),” Munk said. “These iPS cells begin as adult human skin cells but are then reprogrammed to become stem cells, which are then ready to become other cells types.”

As of Tuesday (Aug. 19), the ALS Association has received $22.9 million in donations since July 29, compared with $1.9 million during the same time period last year. The association has seen 453,210 new donors.

ALS is a disease of the nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord that control voluntary muscle movement. The ice bucket challenge that has people from Bill Gates to Justin Timberlake on board has also raised questions about what it does for giving to charitable causes.

“The key problem is funding cannibalism. That $3 million in donations doesn’t appear out of a vacuum,” William MacAskill wrote for QZ. “Because people on average are limited in how much they’re willing to donate to good causes, if someone donates $100 to the ALS Association, he or she will likely donate less to other charities.”

Nevertheless, the challenge has quickly become a popular summer ritual. Writer Barton Swaim posted on Twitter about how the challenge has become a modern form of baptism.

Update (8/22): A Roman Catholic diocese in Ohio has discouraged its 113 schools from participating in the ice bucket challenge, saying the ALS Association’s funding of embryonic stem cell research is “in direct conflict with Catholic teaching.”

Munk said all donors to the ALS Association can stipulate where their money goes and can ask that it not pay for embryonic stem cell research.

Texas megachurch pastor T.D. Jakes is the latest religious leader to join the craze, posting his challenge to megachurch pastor Joel Osteen and others on Instagram:

274 Comments

  1. What are NED stem cell lines ? SCNT is ? blastomere cell lines are what?

    You need to persuade yourself that killing embryos is outdated and completely wrong……

    Science has move on …..yes you are correct about the past techniques , but do not understand the present state of Dr. Robert Lanza’s work of curing blindness …reads his blastomere patents

    • Can RPE stem cells work on a cure for ALS? the answer is YES

      What are RPE stem cells ?

      Robert Lanza
      “An additional problem associated with existing stem cell technologies are the ethical considerations of using advanced human embryos to obtain stem cells. Therefore it would be highly beneficial to have cloned embryos available at an early stage to limit ethical concerns.

      In summary, this invention solves long outstanding problems with efficiency, ethical dilemmas, and the problem of how to clone embryos without oocytes. ”

      Blastomere culture to produce mammalian embryonic stem cells
      Document Type and Number:
      United States Patent 8796021

      Abstract:
      The present invention relates generally to the field of somatic cell nuclear transfer (SCNT) and to the creation of cloned animals and cells. The disclosure relates to a method of cloning a mammal, obtaining pluripotent cells such as embryonic stem cells, or for reprogramming a mammalian cell using an oocyte and a fertilized embryo.

      Inventors:
      Lanza, Robert (Clinton, MA, US)
      Chung, Young (Shrewsbury, MA, US)

    • Stem Cells have already proven effective in MS. Still too expensive. That research should continue. Of course safeguards and great care should be exercised. Meanwhile the Reverends who continue to rail against good science should have more than a bucket of ice thrown on them. Outside of this one issue theri contribution to society is zero.

      • What good science are you considering? Embryonic stem cell research has lead to zero cures! None nota nothing!

        Only adult stem cells and umbilical cord blood stem cells have had cures. Not only has embryonic stem cell research have ethical problems it has yielded nothing! It has been a total waste of time, effort, and money! It is time to stick to the more effective types of stem cell research.

      • I had SPMS for ten years after 8 years with RRMS. Embryonic stems cells are useless in the treatment of MS. There is zero research to prove the point you have made and you do a disservice to the credible research with adult stem cells happening in the world.
        However, I did have a bone marrow transplant with chemotherapy two years ago that has stopped progression and given me a marked improvement. HSCT is currently in final stages of FDA trial in Chicago at Northwestern and has verifiable results.

      • “Good science” has proven that adult stem cells and stem cells from the umbilical cord is much better than embryonic. And that is what the Reverends are preaching. And the recent advancements of a cure for HIV/AIDs and MS were contributed by the research at the the Catholic Church’s Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

        • have understood this paper

          Stem Cell Reports
          Article
          Human ESC-Derived MSCs Outperform Bone Marrow MSCs in the
          Treatment of an EAE Model of Multiple Sclerosis
          Xiaofang Wang,1,2,7 Erin A. Kimbrel,3,7 Kumiko Ijichi,4 Debayon Paul,5 Adam S. Lazorchak,2 Jianlin Chu,3
          Nicholas A. Kouris,3 Gregory J. Yavanian,3 Shi-Jiang Lu,3 Joel S. Pachter,5 Stephen J. Crocker,4 Robert Lanza,3,*
          and Ren-He Xu1,2,6

      • Biaggo: How do you figure that the contributions of Christians is “zero?” Just what do you base that conclusion on? Just more liberal rhetoric against Christians. How is it that when FEMA could not handle the crisis at the border they called the Southern Baptist Convention to do it for them? How is it that the SBC, Samaritan’s Purse, and many other Christian organizations are actually the ones on the FRONT LINES of this issue, feeding, clothing, housing the thousands our stupid president allows to come here illegally? How is it that it was a Christian organization that brought two people with the ebola virus back to the states for treatment and covered the entire expense? Both of those people were Christians helping African people with the disease. No contribution, huh? What about Samaritan’s Purse that runs Operation Christmas Child where thousands of shoe boxes full of items are sent around the world and the U.S. to children who would go without for Christmas? What about St. Jude’s Hospital? It was started by a member of the Catholic Church. What about the crisis pregnancy center where I volunteer? We provide families with free diapers, clothing, dressers full of needs for first-time mothers and their newborn babies. We do this without any cost to the people receiving our services and we do it TOTALLY on the financial support of Christians within our community. So, before you start saying anything about Christians who do nothing except rant against things that are simply wrong, such as embryonic stem cell research, which involved the murder of a unborn baby, you better look around you and you better do some honest research!

  2. Religion has no useful, practical or valid role in science or medical research.
    Ethics, YES. But never religion!

    We must fully reject
    the ancient scribblings of primitive human blood sacrifice
    of Yahweh God from these matters entirely.

    Any philosophy which puts the needs of a god
    above the needs of humans
    is guaranteed to be INHUMAN!

    • What do you mean that religion has no role in science? Religious people have made science what it is today. These people include the German monk Gregor Mendel, who became the father of genetics, the Catholic priest Georges Lemaître, who first put forth the big bang theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître), and the Christian philosopher Blaise Pascal, who has a programming language and an SI unit named after him, among other things (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal#Things_named_after_Blaise_Pascal). See also this list of famous scientists who believed in God, which includes Albert Einstein and Isaac Newton: http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/sciencefaith.html

      In a world governed by atheism, we would risk the forced sterilization of people with genetic diseases such as ALS.

      “[P]rimitive human blood sacrifice” — and yet you would have us sacrifice unborn human beings to save others? The end does not justify the means.

      • @Brian,

        You are being ridiculous.

        First, Albert Einstein was a famous ATHEIST.
        Please don’t embarrass yourself further by pretending otherwise.*

        Second, the beginning of wisdom is to embrace what science has taught us. You cannot deny science in one tone of voice (Creationism)
        then claim it shows God to be “so clever” in another tone of voice (Physics).
        You cannot have it both ways! Make up your mind!

        Third,
        “A WORLD GOVERNED BY ATHEISM” is exactly what you already have right now in the United States of America under the only godless constitution in the world.
        Our Constitution does not allow laws to be made IN BELIEF of a god! Did you know that?
        “Congress shall make no law establishing a religion” is called the Establishment Clause and it is Atheistic – meaning it has
        NO ADHERENCE TO, NOR BELIEF IN, ANY GOD.

        You live in an Atheist Country
        and you like it because it gives you freedom – and that is what Atheism is all about!!

        The non-belief in any particular God = FREEDOM to be yourself.

        So say thank you to THE GODLESS US CONSTITUTION! It claims you have the right to live WITH OR WITHOUT a god if you want to!
        PRAY THAT NEVER CHANGES !!!

        *
        “I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me….
        I am, of course, and always have been an Atheist.”
        – Albert Einstein,
        Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr.,
        July 2, 1945

        Einstein was Atheist.

        • Gotta love how you quote only PART of the First Amendment leaving out what doesn’t fit your agenda.

          “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF;”

          This was not to keep religion out of the public square. Rather, it was to keep the Government from saying we had to follow only one religion. It forbids Congress from promoting one religion over another. It does NOT mean there should be NO religion.

          Our Declaration of Independence clearly states a belief in a Creator
          “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator…”

          • Truth,
            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF;”

            Um. That is Atheism. Non-belief in a god is all what Atheism is. No atheist is ‘prohibiting’ a damn thing. You have your rights to pray to any zombie doll you want to. The word ‘any’ should be a clue. The US is Atheistic – I agree w/ Max on that.

          • @wyatt earp — If we’re so atheistic, why do we have “One Nation Under God” on our currency? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein)

            The first amendment was supposed to make all religions equal in the eyes of the government, not promote atheism.

          • Its supposed to promote ecumenialism. The idea that ALL beliefs are worth consideration. Even no belief at all. Show me a religion that is willing to profess its belief is the equal of another religion. None are favored so all can be protected. Since none are favored, it is atheistic. Without any religious belief.

            People who attack the separation of church and state ensconced within our 1st Amendment seek to have their belief elevated above all others.

          • Erm, sorry — wrong URI — here’s the right one: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_we_trust

        • The fact that the US is not a theocracy doesn’t make it an “atheist country.” A great majority of our founding documents profess a “firm reliance on the protection of divine providence” in one way or another, so even a cursory reading of them shows irrefutably that our nation was founded “under God.” Further, our currency, both a physical emblem of our national strength and a silent ambassador of our national ideals throughout the world, bears the declaration “In God We Trust.” The freedom that our nation stands for, which you equate to “non-belief in any particular god,” was actually established for the specific purpose of worshipping God in whatever manner one chooses, or even not at all. But that freedom was borne out of a clear, obvious, and unquestionable presupposition by our founding fathers that God exists. Therefore, by definition, America cannot be an “atheist nation.”

          • @Drew,

            Wrong. And you religionists are exhausting.
            You seem not to know what Atheism is.

            A- “Not”
            Theism – “God believing”

            ATHEISM = “Non-belief in Gods”

            ONLY THE THOROUGH SUMMARY REJECTION OF RELIGION
            such as that from Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin enabled the religious freedom you enjoy under the Constitution of the United States.

            It still remains the ONLY ATHEISTIC CONSTITUTION in the world
            and IT PROTECTS YOUR FREEDOM TO WORSHIP
            precisely because it does not make claims about God at all.

            Furthermore, ‘In God we Trust’ is a national disgrace.
            It replaced ‘E Pluribus Unum’ on the money in the 1950s.
            It was a Christian power play under the fearful McCarthy era and it has been a lie and a national embarrassment ever since.


            *
            “In every country and in every age, the preacher has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”
            -Thomas Jefferson

            **
            “Question with boldness the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”
            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

            .
            And you have shown only
            obedience and fear – the same cowardice
            which rightly disgusted the founders of America.

          • “Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens…are a departure from the plan of the holy Author of our religion…No man shall be compelled to frequent or support religious worship or ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion. I know but one code of morality for men whether acting singly or collectively.”

            -Excerpted from A Bill for Establishing Religious Freedom, drafted in 1777. First introduced in the Virginia General Assembly in 1779, after he had become Governor. Passed by the Virginia Assembly in 1786, while Jefferson was serving as Minister to France. The last sentence is excerpted from a letter to James Madison, August 28, 1789, as he was returning to America to assume his position as Secretary of State.

          • “Almighty God hath created the mind free…” ;-) ;-)
            (Oh, no he didn’t – and the rest of the paragraph goes into a summary denial of ‘god’)

            “all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion.”

            That is Atheism.

            Because this is THEISM:
            “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (luke 19:27)

            Nowhere in the Bible are men granted the right
            to think for themselves without being punished for it!

            The Founder’s wholesale REJECTION of ALL BIBLICAL CLAIMS
            should be enough for you to see that.

          • Bro,

            Its a parable, you know, a story? You do know this was thousands of years ago and their style of story telling is a lot more extreme than ours is today?
            Congrats on being able to take one line out of context, like Jesus straight up said to a group of people, “Hey, come bring me everyone who doesn’t agree with me so I can kill them all.”
            YOUR ignorance is blinding and makes you such an angry angry man. What website did you steal that from? Maybe do a little more research before you, once again, troll a bunch of people.

            And look, I can take things out of context too!: “My religion is based on Moses: Love God and love your neighbor as yourself.”
            William Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet: In Search of the Cosmic Man (1983).

            HOLY COW ALBERT EINSTEIN SAID THAT!!!!! See how silly I seem when I don’t quote the rest of what he said, or put what context he is using it in? It completely supports my claims that he believes in the biblical God AND I have a source I quoted, WOAH! That is how you come across.

            P.S. : “there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views.”
            Statement to German anti-Nazi diplomat and author Prince Hubertus zu Lowenstein around 1941, as quoted in his book Towards the Further Shore : An Autobiography (1968)

            “And it is equally absurd when scientists say that there is no God. The real scientist has faith, which does not mean that he must subscribe to a creed. Without religion there is no charity. The soul given to each of us is moved by the same living spirit that moves the universe.”
            William Hermanns, Einstein and the Poet: In Search of the Cosmic Man (1983).

            So yes, he did believe in a God. It may not be a Christian God, but he sure wasn’t an atheist like you claim. Go actually read something from him instead of hitting up your favorite atheist website and quoting random stuff.

            Get a life. K thanks.

          • @Louis,

            1. Of course (Luke 19) is a parable!!! YOU THINK I DON’T KNOW THAT ???
            And the lesson of the Parable is that the Nobleman (Jesus) will have his servants EXECUTED by his other servants!

            CONTEXT does not fix the lesson and make it better!

            2. ALBERT EINSTEIN WAS ATHEIST. HE COULD NOT HAVE BEEN CLEARER!
            “I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me….
            I am, of course, and always have been an Atheist.”
            – Albert Einstein,
            Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr.,
            July 2, 1945

            Einstein was Atheist. Get a life!

          • Atheist Max,
            Can tell you didn’t read the Luke 19. These are not the words of Jesus but the nobleman in The Parable of the Ten Gold Coins.
            I pray for you.

          • CH,
            “EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME.” – JESUS
            You didn’t read Luke 19″

            Yes.
            I most certainly did read it
            .
            The first time I read it was many years ago when I raised my children
            to believe in ‘Christ Jesus’. (thank goodness we are all atheists now).

            Luke 19 is called “The Parable of the Minas”:
            It is the story of a nobleman who leaves a number of projects for his servants. For whatever reasons the nobleman is disappointed in their performances and so he separates them and orders the obedient servants to round up the bad ones and “execute them in front of me.”

            Jesus is the ‘nobleman’ in this story.
            Jesus is conveying several lessons:

            1. It is important to appreciate ‘the master’ (Jesus).
            2. The servants owe it to the master.
            3. The servants should fear failing the master.
            4. The servants should OBEY the master regardless of what the master commands – even if it is executions – it is not for the servants to question the master.

            “Execute them” is an obviously an immoral injunction
            which is why it is startling.

            But Jesus is preaching
            that the morality of the command
            DOES NOT MATTER. Only the obedience to the master.

            The obedient servant will have the duty to EXECUTE
            the disobedient servant.

            Luke 19 is a directly immoral parable.
            It is a loveless, hateful, despicable set of lessons, unfit for modern people of all kinds. It is wildly in support of slavery and blesses the sickest, most immoral behavior from every slave master who ever lived.

            Jesus is rightly called ‘evil’ for preaching it.*

            :-(
            ________
            *Always be aware that when we are talking about stories
            in the Bible we referring to things ‘attributed to’ Jesus.
            We cannot know if Jesus really existed, what he really said, or what he really meant in some of these stories.
            These are bundles of contradictory texts written by hundreds of strangers.

            But if you want to claim the Bible is true – that God means what he says –
            then you have to accept all of the consequences of taking that position.

            “Execute them” – JESUS

            It would be laughable if it were not so cruel and dangerous.

          • Atheist Max; BLAMO! I thought I’d check out the ALS thing bu I’m getting my ‘mind blown’ by your insights. Never heard of the Parable of the minas but this is very interesting. Thanks for connecting dots I never even considered.

            People have got to check out what you are saying. This is great.

          • Of course the words are from JESUS.
            “Execute them” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            The entire purpose of the parable is to shock you into obedience and fear of god. the obedient servants of the Lord will be given the responsibility of executing the disobedient servants!

            The ‘master’ is Jesus himself.
            If you don’t like it, consider abandoning this nonsense while you are still free to do so.

          • @Sam,

            God either exists – or God does not exist.
            Those are the choices.

            If you think god exists your conversation can only be shallow.

            If you think god does not exist, you can explore an infinite number of fascinating, deep philosophical and scientific questions:

            How did life begin? Why are we here?
            People who believe in God are not open to speculations or explorations.
            “God did it” is a set of earplugs.
            Faith is a set of blinders.

            Only people who have abandoned religion are allowed to pursue deeper conversations.

          • @Max

            If you believe in an infinite God, aren’t the possibilities infinite as well?

            If you believe in only a finite universe then your possibilities are finite as well.

          • @Sam,

            “If you believe in an infinite God, aren’t the possibilities infinite as well?”

            No.
            Because there are finite statements about Yahweh
            which must be true, or he cannot exist:
            “And the Lord…could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — (Judges 1:19)
            “Jesus could not do any miracles there…” – (Mark 6:5)
            An infinite God is not possible in Christianity, Judaism or Islam.
            If you believe in an infinite god, you have a different religion with different claims.

            “If you believe in only a finite universe then your possibilities are finite as well.”

            Sure, but we don’t know
            whether the Cosmos is infinite or finite.
            There is no reason “TO BELIEVE” either way.
            There is only reason to speculate and to do research.
            There is no reason to claim any of it is true.

          • @Max

            “If you think god exists your conversation can only be shallow.”

            Great!

            Georges Lemaitre believed in God but he was right when he proposed about expanding universe and well, Einstein was wrong and the scientific belief during his time when Einstein suggests that the universe is eternally existing.. no beginning, no end.

            Many years later, Einstein was forced to abandoned that fudge factor in his equation after Edwin Hubble’s discovery that supports Lemetre’s expanding Universe. Fudge factor was inserted in the equation to get the result of an ever, eternally existing universe.

            Einstein considered this as the greatest blunder of his life.

          • @rimi,

            What do George Lamaitre or Einstien have to do with whether a god exists?

            Which God are you claiming is the infinite god?
            Not Yahweh and not Jesus – they already claim limits for themselves according to the Bible. By extension Allah is not infinite either since he is a plagiarism of Yahweh.

            Which god is the infinite god?

          • Bryan, your quote was from a bill written BEFORE the adoption of the Constitution from a state which has an established church at the time. All you have proven is that you copy and paste from lazy people.

          • @Sam,

            “If you believe in an infinite God, aren’t the possibilities infinite as well?”

            No. Because there are finite statements about Yahweh which must be true otherwise he cannot exist:
            “And the Lord…could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.” — (Judges 1:19)
            “Jesus could not do any miracles there…” – (Mark 6:5)
            An infinite God is not possible in Christianity, Judaism or Islam.
            If you believe in an infinite god you have no reason to do so. Unless you have a different religion with different claims.

            “If you believe in only a finite universe then your possibilities are finite as well.”

            Sure, but we don’t know
            whether the Cosmos is infinite or finite.
            There is no reason “TO BELIEVE” either way.

        • «“Congress shall make no law establishing a religion” is called the Establishment Clause and it is Atheistic – meaning it has NO ADHERENCE TO, NOR BELIEF IN, ANY GOD.»

          Erhmm.. You’re leaving out a *lot* of key facts in order to make that assertion. The Framers included the Establishment Clause to prevent the federal government from sponsoring or subsidizing a particular church over/against other ones, à la the Church of England. It was deliberately non-specific. But that’s a far cry from being Atheist (which, by most people’s definition, is also a religion).

          • Tony, atheism is not a religion. You know that right? non-belief is not a religion. Otherwise not believing in Zeus and not believing in Osiris – as I’m guessing you dont? – would be a religion! gods are interchangeable – so not believing in Yahweh cannot be different from not believing in Thor – right?

            Also, Atheist Max is correct that you can say the US Constitution is an atheistic document since it expressly does not make claims about any gods. It is a document that does not believe. If it did believe it would be endorsing a religion – instead it forbids doing so….

            Just FYI, non-belief is the default position. If there is no evidence for a god, there is no reason to believe in it.

          • Wrong Tony, they wanted a government whose apparatus was not entangled with religion in any appreciable manner.

            The only people who read the Establishment Clause so reductively as yourself are the ones who wish to attack both separation of church and state and free exercise of religion. Theocrats with an anti-democratic agenda.

        • Hmm… It looks like it’s a bit more complicated than that. I’ve done a bit more research, which in this case means glancing at a Wikipedia page on the subject. What he said was: “FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF A JESUIT PRIEST I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.” What he really was was an agnostic: “I am not an Atheist.” and “[T]here are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”

          So, it looks like we were both wrong.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Albert_Einstein

          • @Brian,

            ALBERT EINSTEIN WAS AN ATHEIST!

            Why do you have so much trouble with this?
            What on earth are you so afraid of?

            Atheism = “I do not believe in gods”

            God either exists or he doesn’t. Einstein did not believe in a god; not in a personal god nor a deistic god!

            ATHEISM IS NOT A CLAIM! It is not a decision that God is IMPOSSIBLE! It is a lack of BELIEF.

            What is wrong with you?

          • Atheism is a claim that God does not exist. Agnosticism is the claim that it is unknown if God exists which is what you are talking about in your comment.

          • @Linley01,

            Wrong.

            Atheism = “I do not BELIEVE a god exists”
            Agnosticism = “I do not KNOW if a god exists”

            Atheism is only about belief.
            Agnosticism is only about ‘knowing’.

            Theist – “I believe in a God and KNOW which one is the true god”

            Please get your facts straight.

        • Brian – “One Nation Under God” on our currency?”
          Yes, because McCarthy era was afraid of communist atheists. Fear always gets god into the act. When my father was born the currency said “E. Pluribus Unum” which means “Out of many, one”
          that was far better because it actually included everyone who was a citizen.
          “In god we trust” is BS because 20% of American do not ‘trust’ in any god.
          Stupid politicians are always bringing god into places where it doesn’t belong – that is why it says “god we trust” and it couldn’t be more stupid.

          • For 150 years american currency did not say ‘in god we trust’ – it is a dumb aberration – because we don’t trust in ‘gods’.
            We the People are not supposed to be “we the people of God!”

            Just dumb.

        • You seem to have misunderstood (among other things) the prohibition of establishment in the Bill of Rights. That document explicitly preserved the right of each state to establish its own religion (or religions) and forbid the federal government from interfering with them. While all states in the US have since disestablished their state churches, the constitution never forced the states to do.
          You are, of course, welcome to imagine new meanings for the words in question, but your argument is historically inaccurate.

          • But not your kind of Christian.

            The one who holds religious dogma as being more important than exploration and observation of the world around you. Nowadays people calling themselves Christian tend to be far worse critical thinkers and less likely to accept scientific developments which make their heads hurt. Closer to the people who put Galileo under house arrest than the famous astronomer himself.

        • I dont understand why you come on a religious website to troll?
          Are you really that unsatisfied with your life that this is what it amounts to?
          Perhaps you are really just desperate to find someone to convince you to find God. Maybe you are just so unhappy with the way your life is going you need o try to bash on other peoples views as well?
          I don’t really care for the KKK or islamic extremists but I don’t spend my days trolling all over their websites.

          For your info, the big bang theory was thought of by a religious man. Religion does have a place in science, and I’m sure the Monsignor would thank God for his revelation.
          Should we discard it because religion helped form this theory? Throw it out the window?
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lemaître

          Find something better to do with your time.

          • @Louis,

            “I don’t know why you come on a religious website, troll”

            1. To teach people like you that you do not own the world just because you happen to believe in gods.

            2. To teach people like you that religion is entirely debatable from every angle – it is merely optional, superstitious nonsense at best.

            3. Religious fervor needs to be responded to. Your beliefs do not trump my right to reject them!

            4. I study religion the way a cancer doctor studies disease. Religion needs to be eradicated not by outlawing it but by encouraging one person at a time to wake up from this delusional horse crap.

            Religion is a threat to civilization and it needs to be abandoned.
            And your closed mind is proof that the common sense is too rare!

          • @Max

            In response to your statement “Religion is a threat to civilization and it needs to be abandoned. And your closed mind is proof that the common sense is too rare!”

            I believe it was Socrates that said…
            “When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser.”

          • @Louis,

            “Religion does have a place in science”

            Empty, silly claims like that can be dismissed with the wave of a hand.
            Religion is useless to science and it needs to be abandoned.

            Shame on you for not using critical faculties.

          • @Louis,

            “Are you really that unsatisfied with your life
            that this is what it amounts to?”

            Absolutely – you poor person.

            Tell me. What is it like to not care about people?
            Tell me what it feels like to lie to children
            about a place called ‘hell’ for which there is absolutely no evidence
            though THAT ONE LESSON ALONE tends to destroy each life it touches!

            JESUS – I SHALL BURN THE WORLD

            “I have come to bring FIRE…What constraints! I am impatient to bring..DIVISION.” – Jesus (Luke 12:49-51)

            JESUS – HATE THOSE WHO LOVE YOU

            “Hate your parents…hate your life”(Luke 14:26)

            JESUS – I’M A MAFIA GODFATHER. DO IT OR ELSE.

            “Eat of my body” and “Be baptized and believe” or “Be condemned to Hell” (John 6:53-54) (Mark 16:16).

            Yes. I will not rest until I have pointed out all of the foolish cruelty of your religion.
            For the love of humanity!

            SHAME ON YOU!

          • Praying for the lost souls and that Jesus may move in your life so you may see his love for you. You may not like how I believe but that doesn’t stop me from caring for you. And you will also come against me for saying this…no need to even respond back as I will probably never look back to seeing your remarks.

          • Just say that everything that’s written in the Bible is silly nonsense.

            How do you account for the words in that book and the teachings that are derived from it inspiring the building of thousands of Catholic and Christian hospitals around the world, Church missionaries that feed the poor, care for AIDS victims, build universities that teach state of the art Science. How do you account for the success of Judeo-Christian inspired democratic governments?

            ― Socrates

          • @Even Keal,

            “How do you account for the words in THE BIBLE and the teachings that are derived from it inspiring the building of thousands of Catholic and Christian hospitals around the world…”

            Let’s change that to:

            “How do you account for the words in THE Q’URAN and the teachings that are derived from it inspiring the building of thousands of MUSLIM clinics and MUSLIM HOSPITALS around the world…?”

            OR THIS:

            “How do you account for the words in BAGHAVAD GITA and the teachings that are derived from it inspiring the building of thousands of HINDU clinics and HINDU HOSPITALS around the world…

            OR THIS:

            “How do you account for the words in THE TORAH and the teachings that are derived from it inspiring the building of thousands of JEWISH clinics and JEWISH HOSPITALS around the world”

            OR

            WHY DO HOSPITALS NEED TO EXIST AT ALL
            IF GOD IS LOVING AND TRUE?

            WHY WOULD WE NEED MEDICINE AT ALL
            IF PRAYER WORKED JUST AS WELL?

            And you are dishonest.
            You won’t send your ambulance to a church!

            If God were real and prayers worked
            people would not take ambulances to HOSPITALS
            They would go straight to the CHURCHES instead!

            Nonsense, and you know it.

          • @Even Keal,

            “religion is a threat? …..your closed mind is proof that the common sense is too rare!”

            Tell that to John Foley.
            He’ll be happy to hear that religion isn’t a problem.

        • Actually, Einstein was pantheistic or in other words an Agnostic. He did not reject God. He was fascinated with God. But I’ll give you kudos for that nice cut and paste job you did there.

          BTW…Einstein worked closely with a Catholic Priest, Georges Lemaître, and ended up vindicating Georges theory on the Big Bang.

          Ahhh…Science and Religion working together!!!!

          I know that’s tough for some Atheists to deal with.

          • @Even Keal,

            “Science and religion working together”

            Nope. Religion has never corrected a scientific fact.

            Meanwhile:
            GOD SAYS GO AND KILL MORE PEOPLE –
            EVEN IF THEY SAY THEY ARE SORRY:
            “Then the LORD said to me, ‘Even if Moses and Samuel stood before me pleading for these people, I wouldn’t help them. Away with them! Get them out of my sight!” (JEREMIAH 15:1-7)

            JESUS AGREES: “Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law” (John7:19)
            “For the law was given by Moses,…” (John 1:17).

            MEANWHILE, EINSTEIN DISMISSES GODS COMPLETLEY:
            “I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit preist I am, of course, and always have been an Atheist.”
            – Albert Einstein, Letter to Guy H. Raner Jr., July 2, 1945

          • @Athiest Max –

            Einstein clearly rejected the label atheist.

            In 1954 he wrote (9 years after your quote):

            “You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our own being. In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views

            Sounds like he matured as he got older.

            Also…I’m sure you have already been corrected several times today on this, but your Bible quotes are all being taken out of context.

            As a Catholic, we do recognize some of the challenges posed by the literal translations of some parables due to the complexities of translation in to English from the original languages. That is why we don’t rely on the Bible alone for our teachings.

            I do admire your knowledge of the Bible, but there’s more to understanding our faith then scripture alone.

            Peace be with you

          • @Even Keal,

            You need to learn what “Atheist” means.

            Atheist – “I do not BELIEVE in your God claims”
            Agnostic – “I do not KNOW if any god exists.”

            Atheism is about believing.
            Agnosticism is about knowing.
            Theism is belief in a particular God.

            There is absolutely no evidence that Einstein believed in any particular God of any kind, he rejected every definition of God he ever heard about from religions of the world including Yahweh, Jesus Ganesha, Osiris, Isis and Allah.

            If that is not Atheism I don’t know what else it could be!

            Atheists does not mean “God is impossible”
            Atheist means: “I do not believe in your God claims”

            Einstein to Christians: ” I have always been an Atheist”
            Einstein to Jews: “I have always been an Atheist”
            Einstein to Muslims: ” I have always been an Atheist”
            Einstein to Hindus: ” I have always been an Atheist”

            If you want to pretend that this means Einstein believed in a God,
            Then so do I. All hail the God nobody believes in !!!

          • Thank you for your definitions, but I do understand the differences between Atheism, Agnosticism and Theism. I have practiced all of your listed “isms”

            BTW, I posted a quote (1954) from Einstein that post dates your original quote (1946). It appears that he evolved from his earlier hard-line stance.

          • @Even Keal,

            None of what you are saying is making God real.

            Don’t you think the biggest, most amazing, most important, most commanding, most powerful thing in the universe would be supportable by some evidence of some kind?

            Instead you just prattle on about your claims.
            Meanwhile, your God commits abortions wholesale and yet you claim this god is in favor of ‘stopping’ abortions? Where is the ‘sanctity of life’ in this inhuman death cult?

            “hate your life” – JESUS (Luke 14:26)
            “whoever loses their life for me will find it.” – JESUS (Matthew 16:25)

            GOD COMMANDS ABORTIONS
            “Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer… Give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts…they shall bear no fruit: yea though they bring forth, YET WILL I SLAY even the beloved fruit of their womb.” (Hosea 9:11-16)

            Jesus agrees. “The Lord and I are one” – JESUS (JOHN 1:17)

            If listening to your Bible being read to you is disgusting,
            what does that say about your religion?

          • @Max Let’s put aside your “out of context bible verse cherry picking” for a moment please.

            How do you explain all the amazing order in this universe? It can’t be random. How else would scientist be able to predict the motion of planets, stars, etc.? What/who put it all into motion? What caused the big bang? According to science, nothing can come from nothing, so something had to put it all into motion.

            Also, how do you explain the complexity in the make up of the human DNA? There must have been a programer, since if one tiny thing is off, not only in the human DNA, but the entire universe, life as we know it could never have occurred. This is an amazingly beautiful world. If everything around us looks like it was created, we can reasonably conclude that there was a creator.

            So, logic aside, what about love? How do we account for that? Yeah, there may be evolutionary benefits to it, but can evolution account for why evolution exists in the first place? To me God is love. Love is real, so God is real.

            I understand that it may be challenging to conceive all this if your heart has become so hardened and your ego is so unrelenting, but as a former Atheist myself, I find this to be a much reasonable conclusion for the meaning and truths that we all seek.

          • “How do you explain all the amazing order in this universe? It can’t be random.”

            Who says it can’t be random? How do you know!?
            Everything else in nature is completely random. Why not the Cosmos?

            You cannot logically say, “I don’t KNOW how it happened,
            therefore I KNOW IT WAS GOD”.

            If so, how many gods created the universe?
            ONE ? TWO ? TEN ? THIRTY? 432?
            How do you KNOW?

            How many gods created water?
            Did One God create water?
            Does a Second GOD to turn it into Ice?
            Does a third GOD to turn it into vapor ?
            HOW DO YOU KNOW?

            Which God is the true God?
            Allah? Yahweh? Jesus? Hercules? Osiris? Mithras? Isis? Thor? Zeus? Ganesha? Chocmul? Xelhon? Saturn? Aphrodite?
            HOW DO YOU KNOW?

            Which ones are only manmade?
            HOW DO YOU KNOW?

            There was a time when people believed that thunder and lightening were created by the God Thor. Vikings would not go out to sea if they thought it would anger Thor – and it appeared to make a lot of sense to believe in Thor.
            They didn’t know any better.

            For hundreds of years it was forbidden to claim that Thor was not real – because the Lightening and the Thunder WERE THE PROOF that Thor existed.
            If there is no Thor, then why is there thunder and lightening?

            We know everything about thunder and lightening today.
            And there is no god behind it!

            Your argument is no better than the Vikings.
            Because you claim the universe exist it must have been created.
            It is circular nonsense.

            Why does the Cosmos exist? I don’t know.
            And neither do you. Science answers these questions with one discovery at a time.

            Don’t claim ‘God did it’
            just because your parents told you that was the only answer.

            Is there a god?
            You don’t know. And neither do I.

            The difference is, I admit it.
            I do not believe there is a god. There is no method apparently available to make a single decision about the question of god at all.
            It is all merely speculation.

          • @Max

            In response to “Who says it can’t be random? How do you know!?
            Everything else in nature is completely random. Why not the Cosmos?”

            The cosmos are not random. There is an order to it. A beautiful order. Science has told us that there was a beginning and because of it’s movement, and temperature changes, there will be an end. The order is how Science can predict this…or wait…is science just all speculation?

            In response to “It is all merely speculation.”

            The proof you seek about is there a God is all based on material answers to material questions. As believers, we are open to there being more then a just a material world. There is a spiritual realm. It transcends us beyond the drudgeries of this world, and provides a more (gasp) enlightened view of our purpose in this world. It motivates us to do more good in this world then bad. We see beauty as a pathway to God. So we seek it out.

            As I mentioned before, this is hard to fathom when carrying such a hardened heart. It saddens me to know (based on your angst) you are probably carrying this burden.

            I like when Bob Marley sings, “He who feels it knows it.” Faith is a very hard concept to explain at times for a lot of people. I find that Atheists love to exploit that. It’s like bullying the one kid who will get in trouble if he tries to defend himself. So that just allows someone like yourself to come here and boost your ego, which face it, that is really why you are here today.

            We are taught we are to love you too. Those who are not showing you love are not following what the Church teaches. There are many folks that exploit Christianity and technically ruin it for many of us, but we have to love them too. I don’t recall anything like this in the Athiest’s teaching. Oh wait, there was Richard Dawkins instructions to “Mock them” So I guess I can say you are doing a great job of blindly following your leader’s rigidly intolerant dogma.

            Your ego probably brought you here, but hopefully your heart will keep you around to listen some more and consider what your soul my be missing.

            I obviously don’t agree with most of what you are saying, but I respect your views. If there wasn’t any doubt in this world we would never seek out the truth.

          • @Even Keal,

            “Those who are not showing you love
            are not following what the Church teaches.”

            You are completely WRONG AGAIN.
            Christians are doing exactly what Jesus preached

            JESUS : JUDGE THEM HARSHLY

            “deem them unworthy…remove your blessings of peace.” – JESUS (Matthew 10:3)

            “Don’t waste….on the people who are unholy. Don’t throw your pearls to pigs!” – JESUS (Matthew 7:6)

            “shake the dust off…FOR A TESTIMONY AGAINST THEM.” – JESUS (MARK 6:11)

            “DO NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE…IF HE IS GUILTY..”
            (1 Corinthians 5:11)

            “Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals.” (1 Corinthians 15:33)

            “But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one.” (1 Corinthians 5:11)

            “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting” (2 John 1:10)

            “Avoid Them” (Romans 16:17)

            “For whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” (2 John 1:11)

            “If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother.” (Matthew 18:15)

            “As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.” (Titus 3:9-11)

            “Let him who has done this be removed from among you.” (1 Corinthians 1:13)

            “have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.” (2 Thessalonian 3:14)

            “Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.” (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

            “If anyone does not love the Lord, let that person be cursed! Come, Lord!” (1 Corinthians 16:22)

            and on
            and on
            and on

            The NEXT STEP IS EASY:

            “bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their KING and EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)

            Shame on you, for not knowing any of your evil bible.

          • Atheist Max
            I’m trying to figure out if religion is evil or if you are evil.
            And the fact that I can’t decide is a testament to the quality of your argument. What is the world doing following this religion if it falls apart so easily?

          • @Jamie – Please don’t make your decision on whether religion is evil or not based on a comment section on a random website. Speak to some real people.

            No one here are experts at all on the topic, and certainly not me. Max seems to have more of an axe to grind and way more time on his hands to spend rewriting history and cherry picking the bible to suit his agenda.

            Still, I pray for him and I’ll pray for you too. I wish you peace.

          • @Max

            How’s my favorite Atheist doing this evening? :)

            Today on the feast of Saint Augustine I thought of you. Augustine of Hippo was super articulate like you and way more intolerant of religion then you will ever be, yet he ended up as the architect of modern Christianity.

            …and there’s Saul of Tarsus (Saint Paul) who I’m sure you know has committed way more atrocities then you have (although…I’m assuming you aren’t sitting in a prison on death row right now…correct?) His conversion to Christianity changed the course of western civilization.

            It’s amazing how God works.

            No matter how you slice it…Christianity and brought more peace, tolerance, science and enlightenment into this world and will continue to do so.

            I appreciate your challenges. Your devout skepticism and talent for rewriting history have actually encouraged me to seek my faith even deeper. Thank you.

            I do have hope for you. :)

            Peace

          • To those seeking Gods biblical truth,
            Matt. 10:3 is an incorrect reference
            Matt 7:6 is part of a chapter encouraging the things of God & not to waste valuable time on those who will not humbly submit to the God who created an orderly universe
            1 Corinthians 5:6 “do not even eat with such people” is not referring to the unsaved who need God’s truth but to the saved who deny Gods truth as evidenced by verse 12. “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
            Of course, this doesn’t preclude repentance.
            My hope & prayer is that Mother Teresa, Hitler & all Athiests come to a salvation knowledge of Jesus Christ before their deaths. I will never know.
            Yet. I do know there is a God of an ordered creation & my personal salvation. Please read John Lennox if you want to understand a modern scientist who reached for scripture only after utilizing science.
            God Blessings to those who find His Truth.

          • @Biblical Truth:

            “Matt. 10:3 is an incorrect reference”
            It is a typo – Matt. 10:13 is the correct reference.
            “if you deem the house unworthy…remove your blessings of peace.”

            “Matt 7:6 is …not to waste valuable time on those who will not humbly submit to the God..”
            That is called JUDGING OTHERS HARSHLY.

            “1 Corinthians 5:6 “do not even eat with such people” is not referring to the unsaved ….“Expel the wicked person from among you.””
            This is gangland judgement and tribalism no better than the CRIPS AND THE BLOODS

            “My hope & prayer is that Mother Teresa, Hitler & all Athiests come to a salvation knowledge of Jesus Christ before their deaths.”

            You got your wish: Hitler died a devout believer in Jesus.
            And JESUS was at the center of his immorality.
            “My Lord and Savior is a fighter…against the Jews.” – Adolph Hitler

            “Yet. I do know there is a God of an ordered creation & my personal salvation.”
            You are free to believe it. But there is no reason for anyone else to believe it.
            And there is reason to believe that such sentiments are the source of enormous misery in the world. Not for ‘sinners’ but for believers.

          • Hi Atheist Max,

            I’m going to say a prayer for you today and continue to do so when I think of you. Here is my prayer…

            Dear Lord, I pray that you will call Max to you; that he will know You one day. I ask that you send someone in his life to show him the truth of Your Word and that his eyes will see Your revelations, his heart open, and his ears uncluttered from the Devil’s lies. I pray that the Spirit will continue to pursue him, like many of us have so relentlessly been pursued by You, Lord. I ask other believers to include Max in their prayers because only by You and through You, will his heart be called to You. In Your Name, Amen

            Max, although I don’t know you, my God knows you and knows you when I speak your name to Him. May God’s power begin to work in you. My God loves you and you will have many brothers and sisters in Christ waiting for you with open arms. I know, it seems crazy and worthless (all the Jesus stuff), but You might find Philip Vander Elst’s writings interesting.

          • I love the internet. You can lie all you want and no one will call you out on it.

            @Athiest Max – You’re even lying about the fact that you are an Atheist. You’re a Hate-Theist. A real Atheist could care less about what’s in the Bible and would have utmost confidence that it would just all go away some day. But you seem to be very worried that it could be true…it must be why you spend so much time trying to disprove it.

            You are betting big time that anyone with half a brain who can prove you wrong has a life and won’t come here to wipe your ass with the truth.

            Mother Teresa an Atheist, Hitler and devout follower of Jesus???? I just peed my pants laughing so hard.

          • @Bob Bland,

            “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27, Parable of the Minas)

            HITLER: OUR JESUS IS A FIGHTER – TO DESTROY THE JEWS
            OUR Lord Jesus Christ is A Soldier for God

            “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.”
            -Adolf Hitler,
            in a speech on 12 April 1922

            “The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew.”
            – Adolf Hitler
            (following the
 position of Martin Luther)
            Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

            

”Hence today I believe that I am 
acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself
 against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”
            – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

            “The party will always be the political leadership of the german people – it will remain unchangeable in its doctrine hard as steel in its organization supple and adaptable in its tactics. In its entity however, it will be like a religious order!”
            The aim must be that all Germans become National Socialist but only the best will be its leaders.”
            – Adolph Hitler, 1935 –Triumph of the Will

          • @ATHEIST MAX

            Keal: “How do you explain all the amazing order in this universe? It can’t be random.”

            MAX: ¶Who says it can’t be random? How do you know!?
            Everything else in nature is completely random. Why not the Cosmos?
            ————————————-
            Max, this made me laugh. Everything else in nature is completely random? Really? Your DNA is in random? lmao!!

          • Hey Even……..you said, ‘To me God is love. Love is real, so God is real.’
            If that proves god exists, where is your nobel prize?

          • @Praying for Max,

            Though your sentiment is meant to be kind – and is taken that way – you must understand that the world is awash in Religious nonsense and it must come to an end by means of reason and the abandonment of superstitions such as ‘Jesus’, ‘allah’, ‘yahweh’ and the rest.

            All of it is terminal to civilization; Armageddon is a self-fulfilling terminal illness.

            We cannot allow ourselves to kid ourselves into believing that gods are real otherwise humanity will blow itself up trying to prove it.

          • @Bob Bland,

            MOTHER TERESA:
            “I SEE NO GOD, I HAVE NO FAITH.”

            “Where is my faith? Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness… If there be God – please forgive me. When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul… How painful is this unknown pain – I have no Faith.
            Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal… What do I labor for? If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.”
            – Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu, (MOTHER TERESA) – Atheist

            “I think the world is being much helped
            by the suffering of the poor people.”
            – MOTHER TERESA

            “I HAVE NOT BELIEVED IN GOD FOR YEARS.”
            – MOTHER TERESA

            CBS:
            “According to dozens of letters, Mother Teresa died with her doubts. She had even stopped praying, she said.
            The church decided to keep her letters, even though one of her dying wishes was that they be destroyed.
            Perhaps now we know why.”
            – Michele Singer, CBS RADIO NEWS,
            8/23/07

            THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
            HIDES THE LETTERS OF TERESA
            BECAUSE IT IS BAD PUBLIC RELATIONS.

            MOTHER TERESA DID NOT BELIEVE IN GOD.
            LACK OF BELIEF = ATHEISM

    • Hey Max,

      I know you commented further down about Jesus’ word in the parable of the minas. Perhaps you’ve previously been a part of a really horrible church or some really horrible interpretations of scripture. I just thought I’d invite you to know that your take aways from that section sound WAY off from traditional thought concerning that text. If course if you and anyone would find Christ disgusting if that was in fact what that section was about. It would also be inconsistent with all of Christ’s other teachings.

      Anyway, I’m not sure if you will hear any of this anyway but for what it is worth parables were meant to be a bit difficult to nail down. Jesus said so himself. The section you objected to is actually not the difficult part of that parable in my opinion. In fact the difficult part for me to understand is the part where the main character says, “I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away.” Because that is clearly the main “moral message” of the story and comes across as unjust. These are always tricky because they are designed to be a challenge. But as I understand it this parable is actually about “Understanding” itself. As in he who has understanding, will be able to obtain more, while he who does not will plunge even further into foolishness and corrupt what little he did understand.

      Well, I don’t know if you actually even care to consider it. Just thought I would share what can be understood about that parable.

  3. Christians cannot validly claim that cures are going to come from adult stem cells or embryonic IPS cells but not from embryonic stem cells using the SCNT method. How do you know a cure wouldn’t come from an SCNT embryonic cell? No cure has been discovered and none of you are scientists, and even if you were, you would still not know which avenue a cure would be found in.

    I think it’s better to come out and say that you would be fine with a person suffering or dying from a variety of diseases, including ALS, if it meant the destruction of an SCNT embryo which cannot develop into a human. That way, everyone could see your position for what it is. You think it’s unethical to destroy an SCNT embryo, which cannot biologically turn into a human due to technical issues, whereas I think it’s unethical to let people who are already living suffer.

    The author is entitled to her opinion, I just want to point out that cures may come from the SCNT method. Suggesting that IPS cells and adult stem cells are where cures are to be found assumes that the author knows where a cure will come from. Impossible.

    • Hi Brandon. My father died of ALS 6 years ago. My father was and my family is ‘pro life’, meaning we believe abortion to be murder and embryonic research akin to Nazi medical testing on dead camp victims. Nothing can make us ‘accept’ abortion or anything that benefits from it. Not even our own lives.I think you’ll find that true for all Christians, who by definition, must be pro life.

          • the human embryos are frozen and dead and they aint gonna be babies because they are not going to be incubated. read some science. your skin cells are also potential people – did you know that? Yet I’m guessing you wash your hands once in a while?? think of how many potential babies you kill every time you take a shower? dang!

            Like I said. Read some science. you don’t know much.

          • Wyatt — “our skin cells are also potential people” You are missing the point, those embryos if they were unfrozen, WILL produce life. We who object to the use of stem cells reject the idea of casting aside any potential life.

            BTW…You should actually congratulate the bio-ethic and pro-lifers that have pushed science to successfully seek more compassionate alternatives.

            Just the fact that the science community explores these options proves they too agree, there should be more ethical solutions.

            http://genetics.thetech.org/original_news/news70

            Seems you should also read more science.

          • Religion is pretend

            “destruction of human embryos — that is, the murder of unborn human beings.”

            It is simply untrue that all human embryos are unborn human beings. There are countless examples of human embryos which are not capable of becoming people and if you looked into this for more than one minute you would understand the science.

            But religion is too important to you, I guess. It makes more sense to suck down some blood of jesus to save you from going to hell for thinking sexy thoughts? Kind of primitive.

          • The procurement of cadavers means murdering people!!!!

            All medical schools have their own version of Burke and Hare to do the deed!!!!!

          • TheCompassionateConservative

            Apparently I cannot respond directly to “Larry”or “Religion is Pretend” directly. It’s interesting to me that people who support abortion often criticize religion for putting their moral views above science, yet on the issue of abortion they will reject the simple biological fact that at the moment of conception a unique individual of the human species is created. The question is this: at what point do you place value on a human being? For some it is when there is a heartbeat, for others it is when it travels out the birth canal, for others it is when they able to sustain life on their own. For pro-lifers we value human life because it is human life, period. I know in some circles this truth isn’t convenient and so it is ignored or belittled. It’s a shame we cannot have an intelligent discourse on controversial matters without people making emotional and baseless arguments. And Larry’s comment regarding cadavers would be accurate if we deliberately killed those people so we could have cadavers. Since we don’t, it really isn’t valid.

          • “The question is this: at what point do you place value on a human being?”

            When they are born. There. Done.

            Nice clear bright line which is not ambiguous nor attacks the civil liberties of people.

            You may have your own opinions on the subject but they come up hard against simple facts that the average anti-abortion person would rather ignore. You can’t give a fetus greater rights than its mother. The mother is the only person who keeps a fetus alive. It is only her will which makes it happen.

            As for your reply to my cadavers comment, it was sarcasm. But the people opposing the research because of its nexus with abortion are essentially saying similar statements as I did, except seriously.

            The abortions are happening anyway, it is simply using tissue which would otherwise be disposed of. Much like using a cadaver does not imply you killed the person for such use.

          • So, when we as mothers, feel the movement and life of our children before they actually come into the world…. that is not life? just tissue? I agree, as a medical person that even though there is a heartbeat, that fetus may not be viable outside the womb, but a 20 week pregnancy is considered viable and is not kept in the ER but sent to OB unit, that does not mean every 20 week pregnancy will live, actually far from it, but medical advances have lowered the “viable” term of pregnancy from 25 week to 20 weeks just in the years I have been nursing.

          • @Glenda – I think your explanation of life, especially from both a Mother and medical perspectives, is truly spot on.

          • Hi Larry,

            “The question is this: at what point do you place value on a human being?”

            “When they are born. There. Done.”

            “Nice clear bright line which is not ambiguous nor attacks the civil liberties of people.”

            “You can’t give a fetus greater rights than its mother. The mother is the only person who keeps a fetus alive. It is only her will which makes it happen.”

            Do you realize how debase this is??

            So because something is not loved it has no value? Does your logic apply to the 5 year old whose father is too busy getting high to care for him/her? Or the baby who is left on the street because his/her parent does not want to care for it? When everyone stops loving you Larry, can we dispose of you too? Funny how meaning is only given to a life when there is loved involved. I’m pretty sure this is the same reason parents are jailed for neglect. Do you disagree with that too? Or do you value the parents right over the innocent childs? Your mindset is absolutely disgusting!

            “As for your reply to my cadavers comment, it was sarcasm. But the people opposing the research because of its nexus with abortion are essentially saying similar statements as I did, except seriously.”

            As for your cadavers comment Larry, it was a completely idiotic analogy, PERIOD. That was not sarcasm, it was idiocism. You failed to think it through.

            “The abortions are happening anyway, it is simply using tissue which would otherwise be disposed of. Much like using a cadaver does not imply you killed the person for such use.”

            People are killing people anyway, we might as well use their dead bodies for fuel right? Great logic…The ends justify the means…

            You are DISGUSTING

          • @ Tristan

            There is nothing debased about it. Birth is the great signifier of personhood. The idea of giving consideration to a fetus, a life not yet come into being as its own autonomous life is ridiculous. It means you are giving less importance to the sole reason for the fetus’s existence. You can’t declare a fetus a person without declaring the mother a non-person.

            You make a completely off the mark (and probably canned) argument addressing nothing of my point.

            When one is born, they are no longer dependent on a single human being for their existence. Their life is no longer a zero sum game with another. They have independent existence which is not linked to any other human being on the planet.

            Any human being can care for a born child. Only the mother keeps a fetus alive. Its this distinction you want to ignore or spin lies that somehow a fetus and newborn are alike in their situation. Anyone who tries to equate a fetus with a born person misses the point entirely. It is the inherent dishonesty of the “pro-life” position. It is not pro-life, its anti-woman.

            Birth is hardly an arbitrary or debateable point. No hair splitting needed One is born or one is not.

            Your response to my cadavers comment was to demonstrate how absurd the whole objection is. The embryonic material used for research is no more procured by intentionally killing it than a cadaver is. The abortions are not happening to provide the material.

            “People are killing people anyway, we might as well use their dead bodies for fuel right?”

            People use murder victims for medical research. People use accident victims for organ donations. Your objection to the research comes because of an irrational and emotional need to disassociate yourself from anything having to do with abortion.

            It is not based on science, ethics or even morality. Its simply your desire to coerce others into accepting your religious views. If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one. Try to lead an example to others as to why they should follow such things. Claiming alleged moral high ground does not give you the right to tell how others make their personal decisions.

        • Leigh Ann Erdman

          Clearly Atheist Max you are spewing without knowledge. The ALSA website cites that it sponsors a research organization that utilizes 8 week old “permissively” aborted babies. Enough said.

          • They are not being aborted for the research either. You guys can stop lying that the research promotes abortion.

      • Jamadan,

        Sorry to hear about your father. I understand you are against embryonic stem cell research. I’m glad you’re up front about it.

        The only purpose of my original comment was that there may be some cures found with embryonic stem cell research. No one can say that embryonic stem cells will not provide a cure to ALS or anything else just like they can’t say adult stem cells won’t provide a cure. The author is taking an “everything works out” approach here by saying that she’s against embryonic stem cells, but not to worry, they wont’ cure anything anyway. The author just says “Some have suggested that embryonic stem cell research could eventually be phased out by other, less controversial research.” All I can say is that their suggestions are at best contested by many as many think embryonic stem cells can offer cures. I think it’s a disingenuous argument to say that no cures will come from embryonic stem cells since in light of the fact that there are waves of people against it, thereby delaying research and funding.

        My point is this: I agree with your position of that you are against embryonic stem cell research no matter what. The author saying she is against them and trying to suggest that embryonic stem cells are worthless anyway is disingenuous anyway as it is a way to help yourself accept the decision that you may have supported preventing someone from being cured.

        • Nobody will live forever. Nobody is perfectly healthy. The babies who are killed to provide stem cells are not going to live forever, nor are the patients who might (theoretically) have lives prolonged by some unforeseen product of research involving the killing of small, helpless human beings.

          I am dying. I have been dying for years. I am at peace with that, knowing, as I do, that God has said that He is both the Creator and the redeemer of life. My assignment here, for as long as I am here, is to encourage people to seek life, not from human effort that involves “ethically questionable” behavior, but from God, the Creator and source of life.
          Somebody once told a partial truth to a human, and the human believed it, and attempted to “become like a god” by doing something she had been warned would damage and kill her. When anybody, no matter how “educated”, tries to convince me that using something made from the death of another will “prolong my life”, I refuse it. I have refused blood, and will refuse transplants. God has given us one and only one way to live, and it is not cannibalism, no matter how small or “undeveloped” the victim.
          One adult Man, Who is the incarnate Creative Word, the Incarnate Commading Word, came and gave Himself as a redeeming sacrifice for the disobedience of all humanity.
          He returned from the grave, after being there for 3 days.
          He continues to live, and is permitting this argument, and all similar ones, in hope that as many people as possible will turn away from their own devices and ideas, and turn to His, before He comes and takes only His obedient ones into His Kingdom.
          The Prophets all say that not only is He King of the universe, Whose every command is worthy to be obeyed, and Creator of the universe, Who made everything that exists “very good”, He is also absolute righteousness, and unrighteousness can not continue to exist in His presence.
          I am okay with that; I long for that. I also long, with Him, for the repentance of so many who are deluded into believing and sacrificing to the false “god” Science, which can never give life, but only destroy it.
          There have been other societies dedicated to various quests for wealth, health, comfort, ease, nice clothes, and various gadgets and luxuries. This one will not succeed any more than the Egyptians, the Philistines, the Syrians, the Assyrians, the Akkadians, the Babylonians, the Greeks, the Romans. . .who needs to have a complete list? Who could write one? There is only ONE GOD, and He is the Creator and Redeemer. Jesus, Yeshua, is the only name in Heaven or earth, by Whom we may find real life. He is eager to give Life, that is, Himself, to anyone who asks. Why get distracted by “knowledge” or experimentation? GET A LIFE!

      • lorraine schwartz

        My son died 11 years ago at age 46. We were all heartbroken and worked with this most horrible disease. We would not want embryonic stem cells to be used for him as a Catholic we are Pro Life.
        I did send $100 already and hope that it is not used for embryos.

      • Jamadan,
        You and your family certainly should have the right to decline a cure for a cruel fatal disease, because of a misguided idea of embryonic stem cells. However, for those of us who have a clear understanding of biology and value the rights of living, breathing, suffering human beings over embryonic cells, we will gladly accept the cure that came at the cost of those cells.

      • Thank you, JAMADAN. That was beautifully stated, and you above most have the credibility to speak the truth no matter how difficult. Bless you for standing on Christian values in a world which wants to destroy and tear them down at any cost.

    • Time has proved that embryonic stems don’t work. If it had they would have found at least one cure using embryonic stems. As it now stands nothing. Time to put resources behind more effective research.

          • Kamilla,

            Post one ALS research effort that has cured ALS. One.

            Since there is not even ONE SIMPLE CURE for ALS, we must stop all research because you, Kamilla, have instructed us on the lock tight logic that if something doesn’t immediately pan out, abandon all hope. Thanks Kamilla for your stellar logic and really advancing the debate here in America.

            Say what you think: You’d be ok if people had to die from ALS if it meant the destruction of an embryo, even one that was going to be discarded via in vitro fertilization.

            If an embryo is discarded from in vitro fertilization, is that murder? Can anyone other that Kamilla, the Nobel prize winner, explain your thinking on that. I am serious, I would like to know what you think about discarded IVF embryos.

          • Even Dr. Oz said on Oprah with Michael J. Fox the stem cell debate is dead with regards to embryonic, because they can’t be controlled and can produce cancers. He then praised the amazing work being done with adult stem cells.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tceq-oEPUtU
            We’d also be further along if money & research that has been spent on embryonic cells was used on adult stem cells. Also the work of Mother Theresa in India, can’t go unnoticed for those who would say that Christians don’t make a difference. Christians were also the abolitionist who caused slavery to be banned in England & eventually the United States. I’m just saying.

        • Hey Kamilla,
          Just one crazy question… ever heard of ‘google’.
          Yeah, it is a nutty thing – you can ask the internet any question and lo and behold it comes up with a funny thing called: ‘answers’….

          http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/28/science-stemcells-idUSL2N0NH18R20140428

          looks to me like some cures might be coming around from stem cell research: diabetes, cancer…etc..
          Might want to learn how to type google for yourself?
          g.o.o.g.l.e – hey, try it yourself and see how it works. only takes a moment. I’m guessing you are from Appalachia ?

          • There are actual treatments being used today that come from adult stem cells. Yes, I learned that from google.

            Again, I ask, you, Max, or even Mr. Wizard to provide us with one link. Just one of an actual treatment used today from embryonic stem cells. We’ve been hearing that “cures are coming” promise for more years than I care to count. And still zipp, nada, zilch in the way of actual treatment.

            Meanwhile, I’ve lost count of the number of ways in which ADULT stem cells are already helping people.

          • @Kamilla,

            “provide us with one link.”

            CURES???
            Of all the profound ignorance. Good grief.
            We have barely begun this science !

            You don’t seem to grasp what science research is
            and you don’t understand biological research in particular!
            Embryonic Stem Cell research in particular
            Is discovering an unprecedented amount of information
            On how cells behave which leads to further insights!

            I’m not going to give you a science lesson.
            Read the papers YOURSELF:

            BENEFITS OF EMBRYONIC STEM CELL RESEARCH

            http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v418/n6893/abs/nature00900.html

            Furthermore, embryonic stem cell research is crucial. It is not optional.

            And for goodness sake stop lying
            that we are talking about KILLING BABIES!
            Stem Cell lines are not ever going to be babies and they NEVER WERE!

          • I AM from Appalachia, and stem cells now can come from adult bone marrow or even BLOOD. Embryo issues will become moot, but will only people who aren’t buried in the non-logic that exists in so many “issues” know these things? Check these things with any MD that is from a good university—there is no conspiracy to make women get pregnant so that their embryos can be used for ALS purposes. I am appalled at the degree of non-information that circulates in this country. And please note: all my words are spelled correctly! What a shocker in the world of call and response……

        • Max,

          “Stem cell research has been incredibly important and has led to many promising treatments.”

          Your words. Not mine.

          Seems ESC claims remain long on “promise” short on actual fulfillment of those promises. Meanwhile, care to guess how many people are now actually benefitting from adult stem cell research? Right now. Today. Actual benefits, not vaporous promises.

          • Religion is pretend

            @Kamilla,

            “promising treatments” are not ‘curative treatments’!
            English class, much?

            I find it outrageous that religious nuts
            insist on CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE for ANYTHING!
            I mean, why start now?

            Christians make buckets and buckets of WILD and ARROGANT claims
            of all kinds regarding all sorts of spectacular absurdities
            And they use these unfounded, impossible claims to deny
            any attempt to solve any problems: Climate change, women’s rights, environmental reforms…

            Meanwhile we must embrace:
            ‘The Trinity’ whatever that is!
            The resurrection of zombies
            The loving executioner; “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            You dare to ask for LINKS?
            Show me one FACT of god – I’ll take ANY FACT AT ALL!

            And I’ll show you some links. Deal?

            Religion is inhuman nonsense.

          • @Religion is Pretend,

            I would agree for the most part in regards to your handle about religion, Christian or others. But faith in God based on Biblical knowledge and faith more specifically to your point in Jesus Christ is another thing.

            Like so many, who in correctly read literature, you completely miss-read Luke 19:27. This is a parable and Christ is referring to Spiritual death, which you have a choice in.

          • @Sam,

            “Like so many, who in correctly read literature, you completely miss-read Luke 19:27. This is a parable and Christ is referring to Spiritual death, which you have a choice in.”

            1. Jesus is the nobleman. The Parable is a NOT VERY VEILED reference to the Parousia when Jesus returns to separate the wheat from the chaff.

            2. Who are you to say it is about ‘spiritual death’? The exact words “execute them” have been invoked by everyone who ever killed at the direction of Jesus. It has been used to kill Jews for 2000 years:
            “bring to me those enemies who would not have me as their King” is first and foremost a command against JEWS.

            3. The bible does not come with a user’s manuel.
            It claims to BE the user’s manual.

            4. If the literature cannot be taken LITERALLY because it is too dangerous to do so, what does that tell you about the literature?

            I did not ‘misunderstand’ Luke 19:27.
            You did.

        • never, however, with stem cells from killed embryos. Any “hopeful developments” are connected with use of stem cells from adults, who are NOT killed for the cells.

        • Truley amazing ! How every topic about right and wrong always goes off topic and becomes a battle of weather or not there is a God . You want proof you say. There it is. Satan was abolished from heaven to walk to and from amoung the earth seeking whom he may control because he chose to prove he was smarter his ,way was right, and not simply trust and obey. Stem cell research is way above my expertise but if it is taking life that many believe begins at conception . than it raises no debate my instink as a law abiding person tells me its wrong, I don’t nead to be a genius in peers eyes to know this just trust and obey. Is that not what we teach our children ,to trust us that we know what’s right and wrong. God does the same thing and we were created in his image. I pray for a cure for all diseases and God will provide a ethical way for his creation to find it . if we will trust and obey. I excepted and gladly will help ALS but wish I had known

      • Paul,

        By your logic: LET’S NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO CURE ALS. TIME HAS PROVED THAT ALS RESEARCH HAS NOT PROVIDE A CURE.

        Ignorant people like you have been holding back embryonic stem cell research for decades. Hate to break it to you, but this research is very complicated, just like adult stem cell research. You want simply solutions to complex problems. News flash: There are 37 trillion cells in the body (estimated) and they are difficult to understand. You throwing out your ignorance is what is wrong with America. Maybe you can advise the ALS researchers as how to cure this disease as apparently you have the answers. Did you tell NASA to stop trying to send rockets into space after they failed (for a much longer time period that ESC have been studied by the way). I’m glad you weren’t around Edison when he was trying to invent the light bulb.

        • Hi brandon,
          I am a young Catholic, I’m prolife, and I am a senior at a Catholic high school so we have conversations and debates on morality and other issues all the time.

          I just wanted to thank you. I haven’t read all of the comments but so far you are the only person, who “agrees with ESCR”, that is being mature about this whole conversation and I like reading what you are saying. These type of conversations and debates need people who are mature about the situation and non biased. So again thank you for keeping this conversation legitimate.

          (Correct me if I’m wrong about what you agree and don’t agree with)

          • Nathan,

            You are correct, but I would only support ES cell research in in-vitro fertilization situations rather than possible live births. I would also support the SCNT method.

            I’m glad you are keeping an open mind and are interested in the subject. America will have some hope with people like you helping to bring discourse and understanding of these complex and yet over-simplified issues.

        • Did you not read what Dr Oz had to say about this? There have been NO..NONE..NADA., NICTH,.ZIP, ZERO and ZILCH progress using embryonic stem cells BUT there is promise with adult stem cells!

    • As stated above and more than once, embryonic stem cells have not cured one disease.

      Only adult stem cells and umbilical cord blood stem cells have had cures. Not only has embryonic stem cell research have ethical problems it has yielded nothing! It has been a total waste of time, effort, and money! It is time to stick to the more effective types of stem cell research.

      Let’s move on to more effective forms of research and that do not cause ethical problems with anyone.

      • Like Kamilla above, you need to understand that science is moving very quickly and learning truck loads from stem cell research. My grandmother has Parkinson’s disease and some of the studies from stem cells show that this may one day be treatable. You want answers overnight? Well they are already coming fast and furious but ….you can’t get answers with all the religious roadblocks in the way!

      • You know, “wyatt earp,” and “Atheist Max,” are only trying to spew their liberal rhetoric. They say the same things over and over, with degradation towards the one they are saying it to. This is done primarily for them to feel superior to anyone who may disagree with them and actually speak coherently. The truth is, they know nothing except what they are told by those who speak the same stuff. They are too ignorant to do their own research, even when they suggest someone use “g-o-o-g-l-e,” as if they had no clue what it is. They don’t want to listen to any other position because it might just prove them wrong and that would devastate such a person who has no use for God. One day the truth will be absolutely known, and those like these two will shake in their skin, but God will say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me.” If I’m in error, I’d rather err on the side of God.

        • @Carolyn Putney,

          “Atheist Max and Wyatt ….They say the same things over and over”

          Oh really?
          You think 2000 years of “Jesus is Lord” isn’t a broken record yet?

          Here are some other greatest hits stuck on repeat:

          “I never knew you. Depart from me.”
          “One day the truth will be known”
          “I’d rather err on the side of God.”
          “liberal rhetoric.”
          “They don’t want to listen”
          “the fool says there is no god”

          Well, here is something you clearly haven’t considered:

          A head-chopping Islamist argues: “You just have to have faith in Allah”
          A witch burning Christians argues: “You just have to have faith in Jesus”
          An Israeli settler of the chosen argues: “You just have to have faith in Yahweh”

          A world of broken records stuck on REPEAT!
          It must all be abandoned because none of it is real.

          • Pick and Choose

            How many times are you going to incorrectly cite Luke 19:27 in your posts? Please Atheist Max, find your local liberal arts college, enroll in a Biblical textual criticism course, and bring up this one verse–out of context–as you have…over and over…and over again. And then whine to the professor when you fail the course.

          • @Pick and Choose:

            “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            It doesn’t matter.

            If you ‘Love your neighbor’ you are doing God’s will.
            If you ‘EXECUTE’ your gay neighbor you are doing God’s will.

            You win HEAVEN anyway.

            That is what makes this such despicable garbage.

            Religion is a Parlor Trick!
            I learned that in SCAM CLASS 101.

          • You atheist can’t comment without insulting someone can you? Just stick to the subject. You can’t do it, you push your hate filled agenda every chance you get:)

          • @Sarah,

            “You atheist can’t comment without insulting someone can you?”

            “They are Swine” – JESUS
            “They are Dogs” – JESUS
            “They are Fools” – JESUS

            Jesus started it!

            “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

          • Atheist Max, thanks for the common sense you keep bringing to these discussions. I don’t know why you persist against this ocean of idiocy but it is nice to know you are out there slugging away. :-)

          • So you think changing what is said will make it truer? Jesus is Lord! You don’t get any truer than that! Saying it over and over for over 2000 yrs only means it was true then, nothing has changed, it is still true now.

          • “Religion” aside. I hate religion. How about relationship..with our maker? Why are folks so hell bent on jesus or heaven and hell being fake. So..ok if it’s fake. Nothing happens. Your right. NO harm. You rot in the earth and no one remembers you. We were so amazingly made..created…evolved and everything around us for a measely 100 years if we are lucky? We are just skin and bones? No spirit? No depth?? Depressing!!! What a waste! If theres no afterlife! BUT.. IF YOUR WRONG? Being willing to lose eternity to 70 or 80 earthly human years..is really ok with you? And if so.. your the naive one. Just saying. Error on the side of caution…but to each His own. Any one can know scripture.. scripture knowledge or not.. once your dead.. it’s to late. Guess we won’t know till were dead. Either way.. I’m set. You.. there’s still a chance for hell eternal. That’s a huge bet..risk..and you have some major balls on that roulette game.

          • @Candice,

            “How about a relationship with our maker”?

            Wonderful.
            Yes, have a private relationship with Jesus. No problem.
            I’ve heard that Jesus is not a religion from people who do not want to follow Christian commands (the doctrine) – such as yourself?

            Meanwhile, Please help us other Americans explain
            to Christians that Christianity is not a religion.

            That way the IRS can start taxing the churches.

        • nuke_em81@yahoo.com

          Amen, sister! I am certainly not educated enough on this topic (embryonic stem cell research) to join the fray. I am, however, fairly educated in the fact that, I too, would rather err on the side of God. Keep fighting the good fight!

          • Luke 19:27 is the end of a parable. Jesus was telling a story. Matthew 13:10-17 tells why Jesus spoke in parables. Until you believe you will not understand. Jesus words not mine.

          • @Agent Orange,

            “Execute them in front of me” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            Jesus plays the nobleman in the story. It is a direct reference to what JESUS will do to his enemies.
            There is no healthy usage for this nonsense.

          • This quote is from a ‘noble man’ that was to become king, not Jesus.

            If you want to hide the truth in something so easily referenced, that just proves that you will lie all the more in things not so easy to confirm.

            ______________________________________________
            The Parable of the Ten Minas – Luke 19

            11 While they were listening to this, he went on to tell them a parable, because he was near Jerusalem and the people thought that the kingdom of God was going to appear at once. 12 He said: “A man of noble birth went to a distant country to have himself appointed king and then to return. 13 So he called ten of his servants and gave them ten minas.[a] ‘Put this money to work,’ he said, ‘until I come back.’

            14 “But his subjects hated him and sent a delegation after him to say, ‘We don’t want this man to be our king.’

            15 “He was made king, however, and returned home. Then he sent for the servants to whom he had given the money, in order to find out what they had gained with it.

            16 “The first one came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned ten more.’

            17 “‘Well done, my good servant!’ his master replied. ‘Because you have been trustworthy in a very small matter, take charge of ten cities.’

            18 “The second came and said, ‘Sir, your mina has earned five more.’

            19 “His master answered, ‘You take charge of five cities.’

            20 “Then another servant came and said, ‘Sir, here is your mina; I have kept it laid away in a piece of cloth. 21 I was afraid of you, because you are a hard man. You take out what you did not put in and reap what you did not sow.’

            22 “His master replied, ‘I will judge you by your own words, you wicked servant! You knew, did you, that I am a hard man, taking out what I did not put in, and reaping what I did not sow? 23 Why then didn’t you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?’

            24 “Then he said to those standing by, ‘Take his mina away from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’

            25 “‘Sir,’ they said, ‘he already has ten!’

            26 “He replied, ‘I tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

          • @Patrick,

            “EXECUTE THEM IN FRONT OF ME,” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)
            Why does Jesus say it?
            “EXECUTE THEM” – JESUS (LUKE 19:27)

            It is called “The Parable of the 10 Minas”:

            Here is the story of a Nobleman master
            who leaves a number of Minas for his 3 servants to invest.
            The nobleman returns and is disappointed in the one who spoke honestly of his fear – so he orders the obedient servants
            to round up the bad ones and “execute them in front of me.”

            Jesus IS the ‘nobleman’ in this story.
            This Parable is a warning about the second coming of Jesus.
            Jesus is conveying several lessons:

            1. It is important to honor ‘the master’ (Jesus).
            2. The servants owe it to the master.
            3. The servants should fear the master.
            4. The servants should OBEY the master regardless of what the master commands – even if he orders murder – it is not for the servants to question the master.
            5. The servant who speaks out honestly of his fear of the master has doubled his error – his mina is removed before he is executed.

            Jesus is preaching
            that the immorality of the Nobleman’s command
            IS NOT FOR THE SERVANT TO JUDGE.

            Only the obedience to the master is what is important.
            The obedient servant will have the duty of EXECUTING
            the disobedient servant.

            PARABLE OF THE MINAS
            is a spectacularly immoral parable.
            It is a loveless, hateful set of lessons, unfit for modern people. It is in support of slavery and blesses the sickest, most immoral behavior from every slave master who ever lived.

            Jesus is rightly called ‘evil’ for preaching it.*

            :-(
            ________

            *
            Always be aware that when we are talking about stories
            in the Bible we referring to things ‘attributed to Jesus’.
            We cannot know if Jesus really existed, what he really said, or what he really meant in some of these stories.
            These are contradictory texts written by hundreds of strangers with their own motives.

            But if you want to claim the Bible is true – that God means what he says then you have to accept all of the consequences of taking that position.

            “Execute them” – JESUS

            It is cruel and dangerous.
            There is no healthy way to use the bible.

            Shame on those who preach this drivel.

    • I see your point but it is still a human life that scientist may take away. Us humans should not operate on innocent infants, even if it means a cure. It is not humane. You put complex words to try to sound smarter but really you just said that we should continue with the research on infants. I believe that we should work with adult cells first and if that has no cure, then we should try it your way. But operating on someone who is too little to know whats happening is very inhumane. Although you do mention very well thought out points and conclusions, I disagree with what you are trying to defend on your argument. Also, next time don’t make your comment so complex that others need a dictionary to read your post. Thank you and have a lovely day!

      • @Ben,

        Embryos are not infants. Some embryos can become babies – but the majority of them do NOT.
        The scientists are only talking about using SOME of the embryos which would not become babies anyway.

        The objective of the research is to understand how cells divide and why they stop dividing – to find cures for ALS, Diabetes, Cancers and countless other diseases.

        The embryos are not innocent babies. I would not support hurting babies.
        They are embryos which are never going to be born.

        • Atheist Max,
          Please ponder this. The verse you keep referencing (Luke 19:27) is being taken out of context. It is part of a parable, an earthly story with heavenly meaning, that Jesus was using to help the disciples understand key truths. Basically, from what I’ve seen, parables are simply allegories.
          This parable has have several key points:
          – the nobleman (as he is refered to in the King James Version) represents God.
          – the servants are representative of believers, all of whom are given special gifts and talents, all of which we will be held accountable for.
          – the citizens represent those on earth who say they will not have Christ reign over them. Luke 19:14 says,”But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.”

          So, in context with the parable, the nobleman returns (representative of Christ’s return to earth). He takes account of his servants (the judgment seat of Christ where are works, not our entrance to heaven, are judged). Than the nobleman commands that those who rejected him be slain. This is representative of what is called the second death (eternity in the lake of fire). It is not Christian’s responsibility, based on that verse or any verse I know of, to kill all who do not follow Christ while on earth. God will execute that judgment when He comes in power. At that point, it would be perfectly just for Him to execute such judgment, as He has given warning after warning of the judgment to come. I know I am not going to convince you of God’s existence in an online chat board — I have found there is considerable evidence for both sides, and it comes down to which you want to believe — but I would plead with you that you come to Christ before it is too late, as the verse you keep referencing will be your chosen fate otherwise. “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation,” states 2 Corinthians 6:2b.

          • @Kevin,

            “the nobleman…represents God.”

            YES. Thanks for proving exactly my point. The nobleman is Jesus HIMSELF.

            Jesus: “execute them in front of me” (Luke 19:27)

            I am clueless about how you could possibly think this excuses Jesus as an executioner – if he IS COMMANDING THE EXECUTION OF HIS ENEMIES.

        • @Atheist Max – Scientist are not able to tell which embryos have the potential to become or not to become babies. Scientists take the embryo and remove the trophoblast (the outer layer of the embryo required for implantation into the uterus) and place the stem cells into a petri dish. The problem with that is the stem cells can, and have been known to at times, reform the trophoblast layer which would then reconstitute it as an implantable embryo capable of becoming a baby. The issue of stem cells, by their very nature, is much more complex than you are making it out to be.

          • On the back of what cereal box did you get your medical degree from Shane?

            The embryos are the cast offs of IVF not implanted or it is tissue from one already aborted. Doctors know which embryos are not going to be gestated because it has to be implanted first. Its like saying you don’t know which seeds are going to grow, when you are only putting half of them in the soil.

        • ” understand how cells divide and why they stop dividing”

          Cells dividing is Life. It is that one fertilized egg with that DNA of the father and the mother, and multiple generations prior, that creates a baby.

          If these cells did not divide you are right, the cells would be dead on their own, but if the cells are dividing, then they have all of the necessary building blocks to create life given an appropriate environment.

          I have no problem with adult stem cells, or stem cells from cord blood from healthy born babies, but to take an aborted, fertilized egg, that left to nature will be a happy, bouncing baby boy or girl in a few short months, when other more ethical, more valid options are available in inhumane.

          We have organizations that fight for animals, prevent abuse, prevent testing, protect the eggs of Bald Eagles with Federal laws, but the fact that human babies are slaughtered by their parents for convenience sake with the government’s blessing, disgusts me.

        • You said that Jesus said, “Execute them”.
          But what are they doing is the same thing! But these are innocent and were made to be destroyed.
          By the way, who made these cells? Who made the oceans, and they stay in their place? Who made the sun and our planet so perfectly that it stays exactly the distance needed so that we don’t burn up or freeze to death. What keeps our heart beating? Why do we have lungs and breathe in H2O? Something greater than you and I makes this happen. What causes us to blink?
          I was in a situation about 4 years ago when I was diagnosed with colon cancer. I was having what I thought was wrestless legs syndrome. I tossed and turnned with no med. that worked. I went to the dr. because when I was sleeping, my body would throw itself up and I would gag and my heart would beat so hard and fast. The dr. explained that when your body losses so much blood very slowly, your body adjusts to the loss of blood. He told me when your brain is deprived of blood, something causes your body to react violently and forces the blood to your brain like vomiting. .. to keep you alive. If that had not happened to me I would have died. God has a purpose for me. I know that you might be thinking……What kind of God would allow us to die? Everyone will die. He knows the time….I don’t.
          I now serve God just like I did before because I personally know that this cancer happened for a reason. He showed me things like a peace that no one in my family or church understood. It was a feeling of unbelievable peace. I never lost a night of sleep because I know my Maker is Lord and Savoir!
          Two years ago my mother passed away….but before my cancer diagnosis my youngest sister at 19 passed away and my mother was devastated. When I was diagnosed with colon cancer stage 3B I had to console her and everyone else. My oncologist and nurses were shocked at my peace. My Dr. Could not believe that my chemo had so little affect on my body.The only symptonm I had was prickling on my fingers when I drank or touched anything cold. But my husbands friend had the same chemo while I had mine, and his feet turned black from blistering on the soles of his feet. He was in pain and was having so many symptoms.
          There is Someone who is responsible for that overwhelming peace. He is Jesus….my Lord and Savior! I hope one day that if something would happen to you like it did to me, that you would have a chance to accept Jesus. It’s a choice. Not everyone makes that choice. I hope you would not have any kind of sudden death where you weren’t able to make that choice. I believe that until your last breath….you can make that decision. I pray that you will have a second or third chance. Jesus didn’t die for rich, poor, or beautiful. He died for a sinner such as I. He would have died just for you if you were the only person on earth.

          • The bottom line is, I have the right to NOT help fund something I believe to be wrong and you have the right to fund something you believe to be right. Each of will be held accountable (or not if you believe there is no God) for our own actions. This article is pointing out that various religious leaders are supporting (whether knowingly or not) an act that goes against what we “Chistians” believe to be right. My Grandmother died from ALS and I would love nothing more than to find a cure. With that said, I will not contribute to the research as long as they are using embryonic stem cells and I have that right just as you have the right to support it if you want. It is just important to us who don’t believe it is right to make sure that those who are unaware of what they are supporting be made aware. Debating the Bible and the existence of God (or not) will never end until the day we either die or the day Jesus returns (or not as you may believe). What I don’t understand is why many atheists feel the need to fight so hard to disprove the existence of a creator and to debate the Bible with such hateful words. Yes, some horrible things in the name of “Christianity” have occurred and still occurs, but in my opinion they were and/or are not true “Christians”. Jesus told us the greatest command of all is to love. True Christians that follow the teachings of Christ are not hurting anyone. So again I ask, why so much hate? Why is it so important for atheist to go out of their way to try and disprove God, the Bible and Jesus? It is my right to believe and it is my right to stand against embryonic stem cell research regardless of the benefits. Atheists have so much hatred for God, which I find puzzling since they don’t believe God exists.

    • Actually, the benefits of ESCR have been rather minimal in comparison to SCR using adult stem cells. ESCR treatments require the lifelong use of drugs to keep the patient’s body from rejecting the embryonic stem cells,another thing is that embryonic stem cells (due to their rapid reproduction abilities) are known to often grow tumors in the host’s body. When fetal brain stem cells were being tested and inserted into the brain of patients with Parkinson’s disease, the results were that of uncontrolled and drastic body movements. Maybe one of the biggest issues for continued use of ESCR is that many of the embryonic stem cell lines grown with mouse cells, meaning there is cross species contamination to deal with if they are to be used with human patients. Also, mice that were cloned from ESC were genetically defective, implying future issues with human ESC.

      While there are some benefits of ESCR, they are far outweighed by the setbacks (many of which have been directly related to the supposed benefits, ie rapid cell growth in embryonic stem cells) and the limitations already seen in the results of ESCR. Adult SCR is already proving much more useful in the treatment of diseases and conditions. So, instead of basing your answer off of what could possibly happen, lets base it off of what has the potential of happening. Especially when the one with the most complications also poses moral questions and has been made illegal to grant and future federal money to be researched.

    • The Church is not it’s buildings; the Church is the people. Each person is a brick in the foundation of the faith. That being said, I’m Catholic and almost every Catholic I know believes that embryonic stem cell research and use is okay. Recent PEW polling showed 66% US Catholics do not oppose stem cell research. But we’ve always known that Church leadership does not always reflect the church as a whole. Just look at birth control in the US. The majority of the Catholic church in the US accepts and uses birth control. We all know that IVF and other fertility methods produce thousands and thousands of embryos each year that never make it out of storage. It would be heartless to restrict stem cell research when there are embryos dying from non-use. It would be like me denying on my death bed my organs for transplant even though I knew that they were a direct match for someone in desperate need of them. Letting unused embryos die when their sacrifice could bring a stop to suffering and death is a selfish decision.

  4. Sarah – embryos are not “nascent” human life, they are factual, indisputable human life. Are your eds making you throw up misleading qualifiers to satisfy the pro-choice crowd?

    • “they are factual, indisputable human life.”
      You are 100% wrong. Get off your religious high horse and read some science instead of spewing dumb stuff like this. These are not children to be – these are far, far more undeveloped and they will not be matured enough to ever be babies.
      Religion is nothing but ignorance all around.

      • Hey, Wyatt

        I will kindly suggest that you check any embryology text. Please.

        These anti-scientific pronouncements that embryos are not human, not alive are really getting annoying.

        • @Kamilla,

          What is wrong with your ability
          to research these things?

          By your definition… semen is alive therefore men shouldn’t masturbate! We are killing our little sperms!

          By your definition … a woman’s eggs are alive
          so a women should not have her ovaries removed
          even if she is dying of cancer! You don’t want to kill your eggs!

          Your kind of thinking is exactly what illustrates the danger of religious cultures. Ignorance, empty claims and anti-science.

          Ridiculous, exhausting nonsense.

          • Max, Max, Max, seriously? Semen is alive by “my definition”?

            I’m beginning to think you and Wyatt are just having a bit of fun. I have a hard time believing anyone could be so wrong about so many things.

          • The question isn’t so much whether embryos are alive; we know they are. The question is whether they are human. Most people believe that fetuses are human some time before birth. They tend to draw the line at some relatively unimportant place, saying that the fetus is alive when it’s heart is beating or when it is “viable.” But, in light of the fact that the fetus is physically little different before such an event than it is afterwards, just as a child changes little physically during birth, this leads to a slippery slope back towards conception. Of course, you can’t really go back further than that, so conception is where we rest. And it seems right that life should come from two things (sperm and egg) combining to create a new thing, a living human being.

            To counter this, some have invented what is called “the personhood theory,” stating that, even if an embryo is a living human being, it is not a person, and thus does not merit the protection of law. The same criteria that they use to define a “person,” however, would qualify infants and the comatose or severely mentally handicapped as “human non-persons,” who could be killed for any reason at all.

            So when does human life begin?

            Birth? Most people would not say so. And why, when a child changes little during birth?

            When the child is viable? And what makes a non-viable child any less alive, any less a person? A person under life support is not viable, in the strictest sense. What about a person with artificial organs?

            Some other arbitrary point before birth? And how would we decide what that point is?

          • @Brian,

            “So when does human life begin?”

            Whatever the answer is, don’t tell me that ‘god knows!’

            There are certainly ethical things to consider
            in embryonic stem cell research
            but we do not need to consult the ‘blood of Jesus’
            or pray over his holy crackers for guidance.

            We can figure out the ethics ourselves
            without consulting an
            invisible upper atmospheric air pocket!

            Religion has no place in this debate.

          • Brian, your “personhood theory” is illogical ridiculous nonsense to try to give a fetus greater legal rights than the sole life which keeps it alive. There is no way to do so without attacking the mother. Usually this is done through either ignoring her role, insults, or pretending your moral stance is so important that anyone else must follow your whims for their personal private decisions.

            When does life begin? Not relevant until its born. Its not a child until it is born, so analogies with abortion and infanticide do not wash.

            If the fetus is not in a womb gestating it is not alive nor ever will be.
            Its use in research no more ethically challenged than use of cadavers.

          • So was a cadaver at one time. Using your argument, medical schools should revert to their Victorian age nonsense of being forced to rob graves to learn basic anatomy.

          • Luke 19:12-27King James Version (KJV) This was NOT JESUS!! it was a nobleman

            12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.

            13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

            14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.

            15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

            16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

            17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

            18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

            19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

            20 And another came, saying, Lord, behold, here is thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin:

            21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.

            22 And he saith unto him, Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow:

            23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?

            24 And he said unto them that stood by, Take from him the pound, and give it to him that hath ten pounds.

            25 (And they said unto him, Lord, he hath ten pounds.)

            26 For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him.

            27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

          • You have chosen to shun Truth and believe lies. You are unwilling or unable to recognize or believe Truth, by your own choice. Truth is this: God created man in His own image. God made everything He made, very good. God gave us specific instructions about how he world in which we live worked, and how to live. Then a liar came along, who had made the decision you have made, and refused the Truth. Humanity (both of them) tried to use the liar’s method for life, and we inherited a mess. We die. I will die.You will die. Why are you, personally, so hostile to God? He offers you Life, and you hate Him!

          • Please be patient with Atheist Max. Many militant atheists end up being the most brilliant converts once they learn to put their ego aside and open their heart to the truth.

            Whether you care to know it or not Max, I’ll pray for you.

            Peace be with you.

          • @Even Keal,

            “Many militant atheists end up being the most brilliant converts…”

            Militant Muslim – Osama Bin Laden
            Militant Christian – Adolph Hitler
            Militant Jew – Baruch Goldstein

            Militant Atheist – John Lennon

            “Imagine no religion, it’s easy if you try” – John Lennon

        • Hey everybody,

          I think part of the issue here is the complicated nature of this issue. First, the embryo in this study was clearly going to develop into a human if not aborted. However, embryos are created in ways that either cannot result in the creation of a human, or have been decided to not be used in the creation of a human: 1. SCNT (somatic cell nuclear transfer) and 2. In vitro fertilization.

          1. SCNT – This type of embryo cannot develop into a human. Scientists have tried, they can’t get them to develop into a human. Would anyone be against SCNT embryonic research?

          2. In vitro fertilization – These types of embryos could be developed into humans, but over one million IVF embryos have been thrown out. Do you consider research on IVF embryos unethical? How is research on the IVF embryos unethical, but not the act of discarding the embryos?

          I do agree with everybody that the ALS taking ESC from an aborted fetus is not a good deal, nobody should be doing that. I am just thinking that there are other ways to research this without involving abortion or destruction of a potential human life. I have a hard time believing all Christians would be against the research of the above two approaches. I can see why people are against this study of aborted fetus ESCs, that is disturbing.

          I really hope to advance the conversation a little bit, I know it’s not going to happen.

          • The researchers have found no cure for anything using embryonic stem cells. The researchers have said there is promise using adult stem cells. So if I want a fried egg sandwich why would I stand over the frying pan breaking up little pieces of celery hoping they will turn into a fried egg? Also, if you need to get to work…are u going to use the car that you KNOW will get you 5 miles down the road or use the foot propelled scooter and take much longer. The tried and true is the best…..

          • The reason the embryos are “created” (wrong word, but it is the one you used to describe producing small human lives in vitro) is part of the reason they “will never develop into human beings”. Some are implanted into actual wombs, and do “become human beings”, as you call it. Others are thrown away, which is not moral, but is done, as many immoral things are done, often.
            Yes, many of us are outraged that these children (young humans) who are, like most humans of al age, unable to survive without assistance, are killed . God is the only One Who can keep track of all of us, when the world throws us away, and He does. The act of abandoning a very young, very tiny infant, making certain that infant will die, is despicable, and is done daily in this country. The human condition is depraved. The word “Belial” in the Bible describes us pretty well: it means, “terminal depravity”. Just the fact that it is no God’s recorded commandments and instruction, but the theories and imaginations of human beings with the idea that we are able to “save life” and “cure disease” insures that the use of science has become idolatry, and will fail. Anything will fail, if substituted for obedience to God.

        • @Kamilla — Kudos for your clarity and persistence with this issue! I would have jumped out a window by now. I pray you are planting seeds with Wyatt and Max with your articulate responses!

          You go girl! :)

          • God exist whether or not men may choose to believe in Him. The reason why many people do not believe in God is not so much that it is intellectually impossible to believe in God, but because belief in God forces that thoughtful person to face the fact that he is accountable to such a God.

          • Science exists regardless of one’s belief. God is not necessary to the advancement of knowledge. Never has been.

            Having a feeling and a desire that God exists is not the same as being able to say he does.

          • I looked up on Google the question are bats birds according to Leviticus….answer..surprisingly ….to the ancients who did NOT have the benefits of modern science a bat was put in the bird category as it is small like a bird and flies…..now we who DO have modern science know that bats are mammals. Moses who was the speaker in this instance gave knowledge as he knew it. Not being Ozzie Osborne …..would YOU eat a bat?

          • @Emilie,

            “the ancients who did NOT have the benefits of modern science a bat was put in the bird category…”

            Thanks for agreeing that the Bible was written by ignorant ‘ancients’ who knew nothing – and not a god.

            The Bible is not the “word of god” it is instead “the guesses of Ancients.”
            And that about sums up what use the Bible is to modern people – it is a doorstop.

          • Nathan is right. Science thrived as Christian cultures grew around the globe and are the direct result of the peace and stability the religious brought to the world. Universities are also the direct result of Christian efforts to teach and educate in the west.

          • @Even Keal,

            “Science thrived as Christian cultures grew”

            Nonsense. How embarrassing for you that you believe this drivel.

            Science grew as Christian power began to fade away. It was called the Enlightenment and it was about the rise of reason.

            “Religion is a system of wishful illusions together with a disavowal of reality, such as we find nowhere else but in a state of blissful hallucinatory confusion. Religion’s eleventh commandment is “thou shalt not question”. – Sigmund Freud

            98% of the members of the National Academy of Science are Atheists.

            Religion is a set of earplugs. It must be abandoned.
            – Atheist Max

  5. It helps people — people that are sentient and conscious. Don’t deprive people from living healthy, happy lives because you’ve managed to interpret your doctrine in such a way that it disagrees with stem cell research. People, living right now, need help.

    • Diana, why do you ask? of course I have read the bible and it is full of irrelevant junk which cannot help modern people. It is a laugh out loud disaster.

      It makes no sense for God to try to save humanity by turning his son into a blood sacrifice. But the drinking of the blood….uh. too disgusting to talk about.

        • Nobody learns morality in the Bible. It is a terrible source for such stuff.

          Christians learn such immoral lessons like learning to look out for their self interests or out of fear of divine punishment or reward. They learn to outsource moral decisions to arbitrary and capricious authority. They learn that any harmful or malicious act can be excused if you are do it in God’s name. They learn to fear and loathe knowledge in favor of social order.

          Biblical morality is not morality at all. Its merely barely restrained sociopathic behavior.

        • @Nathan,

          “having a moral code gives reason”

          The most ancient moral codes – much older than the Bible – were full of reason:

          The Code of Hammurabi
          The Book of the Dead
          The Golden Rule

          No gods are needed for these codes. Morality does not come from religion – it comes from our biology and our culture. Religion takes credit for what it did not produce.

          Reason has nothing to do with faith.
          Reason and religion are diametrically opposed methods of determining truth. Reason works. Religion doesn’t.

          Religion fails, which is why it keeps coming up with new ideas about god.
          Reason always works, whether you have faith in it or not.

    • @Art,

      “P.S. that conscience thing is the Holy Spirit.”

      Listen to a famous Atheist:

      “Where is my faith? Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness…If there be God…
      When I try to raise my thoughts to Heaven, there is such convicting emptiness that those very thoughts return like sharp knives and hurt my very soul…
      How painful is this unknown pain – I have no Faith!
      Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal… What do I labor for?
      If there be no God…..Jesus, You also are not true.”

      – Mother Teresa (atheist)

      Shame on you, Art.
      How many more people must you lie to?

      “If you have to lie to prove what you believe,
      then what you believe is a lie.”
      – Frater Ravus

      • If there is no God, and If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents – the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts – i.e., Materialism and Astronomy – are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset. The difference between Christians and atheists is that Christians tried to find God and never gave up until they did. Now it is easy for them to know He lives. But atheist give up, they can’t find him because they don’t want to. An atheist looking for God is the same as a criminal trying to find a policemen. You want to live without conviction, you want to do whatever you want and not be accountable for your actions. Just like a child to his parents. God has made every child that ever will be born. Everyone is special, for all we know that child that they used for research could have been the person to grow up and find a cure for ALS. A child is born at conception, that is it’s birth. That is when it is human. Stop running from God. I’ll have you know that most atheist convert on their deathbed, they don’t want to risk not going to heaven. They regret their choices and say they were mad at him because he didn’t do what they wanted, or wasn’t there when they needed him. Maybe if you always lived for him he would be there on your time as well. I will pray for you my friend!

        • @Caleb,

          “An atheist looking for God is the same as a criminal trying to find a policemen.”

          That is an unfair analysis. The VAST MAJORITY OF ATHEISTS searched for god within their faith for years and came to the realization that they were pretending to believe in something they simply could not believe.

          “Stop running from God. I’ll have you know that most atheist convert on their deathbed, they don’t want to risk not going to heaven. They regret ….”

          You don’t understand Atheism at all. The death bed conversion is a myth – and a very easy lie to tell.

          Andrew Carnegie
          Mark Twain
          Oscar Wilde
          Paul Newman
          Thomas Edison

          You are in no position to judge these Atheist’s lives.

          We are not ‘running’ from God. We tried to find god and discovered intstead that it simply didn’t make sense.

          If anyone is the ‘criminal’ it is the religious person who claims they KNOW which god is the true god and insists that everybody else has to agree with that decision! – as you are doing.

          As for “why we exist”…
          You don’t know. And neither do I.

    • Adult stem cell research has its origins in embryonic stem cell research. Is it ethical to benefit from research that had its origins in “unethical” research? “Fruit of the poisoned tree”?

  6. @ AM – Still a few degrees off I see. 44 years of religion is so hard to shake off! No matter how hard you try the old conscience is burning a hole in your head. P.S. that conscience thing is the Holy Spirit. Don’t grieve Him AM. You got some good stuff but so much else is warped. Oh well; here’s to the mechanic!

        • “I don’t believe in God. I see no Jesus anywhere.” – Mother Teresa’s letter to the Vatican 1986.

          “I don’t believe in God. I see no Jesus anywhere” – Atheist Max

          Why don’t you Tell me the difference?
          Promoting gods when you don’t believe in them is called lying.
          And lying willfully over a number of decades is EVIL.

    • Art,

      Tell me about Mother Teresa’s ‘Conscience’

      Was that the holy spirit?
      Tell me why the Church lied to her
      and told her to “keep going” even though she had no belief in Jesus at all…

      http://quotes.yourdictionary.com/convicting

      So transparent.
      Mother Teresa was no mother. She was a virgin.

      Mother Teresa had no faith in god. She was an Atheist.

      But Mother Teresa BROUGHT IN MILLIONS OF DOLLARS FOR THE CHURCH! WHICH IT SPENT ON PEDOPHILE RINGS AND COURT CASES.

      My CONSCIENCE is clean.
      There is no ‘holy spirit’ in my conscience.

        • @Virginia,

          “I have no Faith, no love for Jesus in my heart.”
          “When I look for God I see nothing”
          – Mother Teresa

          “If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true.”
          – Mother Teresa

          This woman was a monster. Not because she was an Atheist -but because she lied publicly for years about he lack of faith.

          1. She used the church for her own glorification.
          2. She stole from the poor and gave to the rich.
          3. She insisted on the worst care for her ‘patients’ and the best care for herself.

          Religion forces people into completely ridiculous states of mind.
          Godless charities like “Doctors without Borders” are vastly superior to these ridiculous catholic ‘missions’ – pathetic.

          • No one is perfect AM. You do know that mother Teresa is blessed and will be a saint someday right? But you can yourself atheist so you may not know that many saints in the Catholic Church were well known sinners, I need not say more because you said you have read the bible, so out of respect can you plz stop bashing the church and our saints and beliefs please. All of what you are saying is biased over the fact that you keep saying you are atheist.

          • @nathan,

            I don’t mind if you want to believe stuff.
            But when Christians tell me I have to believe it – as when I’m told that Hobby Lobby’s rules have to touch my life or when i am being told that I cannot speak at town meetings because I am Atheist – that is when I must confront this silly nonsense.

            Believe it if you want – but Christians are wrong to expect the rest of us to do so.

          • Mother Theresa was not infallible. She too is a mere human like any one of us and could be wrong. Just saying.

          • Mother Teresa was human. She was Atheist.
            Unfortunately she was very private about her lack of belief in God.
            She would have done the world a favor if she was honest.

            If Mother Teresa can beg god for answers while she is praying
            and still get only silence
            Why would other Atheists do any better?

            Religion is something to abandon. It makes no sense
            And there are better ways to live.

          • @Max
            Based on your limited observations, at best you, can say Mother Theresa experienced periods of doubts just like all humans do. But You cannot claim her as an Atheist, just like you state we can’t claim Einstein as a Theist. (please provide sources for your claims that the Catholic Church has letters from Mother Theresa that they are too embarrassed to reveal publicly)

            The church holds many of these “doubters” in high regards. Right from the start there was the original St Thomas (doubting Thomas), Then there was Saint Augustine and so on. Mother Theresa was just as noble of a believer, a Christian, and a human being as all the other saints. I’m sure her celebrity wore on her too.

            Being Christian doesn’t mean there will never be doubt.

            “Without doubt we would never seek what is good in this world” – Saint Thomas Aquinas.

  7. nuke_em81@yahoo.com

    @ Larry and Athiest Max
    I feel so sad for you and others like you, having such a bleak, angry outlook on life (and beyond). Hate me if you must, but I’m praying for you guys. Praying that somehow some way, you will be able to discard the hate, confusion, anger, etc that the enemy is blinding you with an discover who Jesus really is before it’s too late. Take care, friends.

    • @Nuke ‘em,

      With a name like that, you confirm everything that is wrong with this Jesus cult.

      “I tortured my son, made him bleed all over the ground, because it was the only way to save humanity” – Yahweh

      You believe this
      And you ‘feel sorry’ for me?

      Get help.

        • @Candice,

          “it was for the blind – someone like yourself.”

          Then why doesn’t it work?
          Did god not torture Jesus enough? Should he have slaughtered 2 sons instead of one? Would that have been more effective?

          • No. One was certainly enough. His son was also himself. He was father son and holy spirit. Sort of like I’m mom wife and daughter. He sacrificed himself..much like a parent might sacrifice himself for his child in a way of harm. So he sacrificed himself to make perfect what Adam and eve made unperfect by the first sin of disobedience.

          • Why did god need the blood spilled?
            Sounds primitive.
            What is it about the blood spilling out of Jesus that helped God finally do what he wanted to do anyway – save humans??
            (“Lamb of god” is a slaughtered sacrifice)

      • Max I do enjoy you contribution to this discussion.

        Tell me,if you were in a situation where you had to take a bullet or endure a fatal outcome to save your family and friends, would you do it?

        • @Sam,

          Of course I would take a bullet to save my family.
          And the person firing the bullet would have to be executed for murder.

          If you are going to say “Jesus took a bullet for humanity”
          I would say, “Execute God for firing the bullet”

          If you are going to say “Jesus had to die”
          I would question the hit man who demanded it.

          And if you said, “God tortured and killed a person for your personal benefit” I would question the ethics of such a theory.
          I would question the god who was so limited as to not be able to imagine a better solution.
          I would also question the go who went through all of this
          Just to save people from a Hell of his own making.

          It makes no sense.

  8. It amazes me that people who are supposedly scientifically minded do not know or cannot understand what a person means when they say that embryonic stem cell research is unethical because it ends a human life. You say it doesn’t matter because that embryo was never going to be a life? Because it was frozen? Well let’s get real here. We all started out as a zygote and then a blastocyst and then an embryo and then a fetus and then an infant. These are all stages of life! Every person on this planet started out this way, including YOU! And as far as the embryos being frozen, I’m pretty sure they are frozen and preserved for future invitro attempts should other attempts be unsuccessful. The point is that no matter what the circumstances when you combine a sperm and an egg you are creating a unique life and that even if you abort that life after 1 week to harvest cells it was still a living organism. It just so happens that the organism we are talking about is another human being. It cracks me up that you atheist idiots don’t understand that while you spout your religion of science. And no I am not a Christian and I don’t pretend to be but neither am I an atheist. We don’t know if there is or isn’t a God or higher power but we do know that when you take a sperm and an egg that it creates a life. Period. End of story. Science taught us that. Didn’t it?

    • Yeah. And God wants us dead. Period. End of story. So what are you objecting to? He aborts more fetuses than humans can make. Plus, how do you decide where to break up your paragraphs? Same place you get your logic from?

    • A cadaver used to be a living born person yet it is still used in medical research with no objections whatsoever by people. Your argument is crap because you are focusing on the wrong part of the equation here.

      Those cells were never going to be born. Never going to be a person. Either they were ones rejected for implantation for IVF or the waste material of abortions. So stop pretending that the cells being used are a potential living being. It was never in the cards here. The research didn’t preclude the embryos from forming a person. You can stop pretending it was.

      You have to make a patently dishonest argument to claim any kind of moral objection here. That abortions are being performed for the sole purposes of harvesting the cells involved.

      How is this any different from medical use of a cadaver, or testing done commonly on living donated tissue? It isn’t. This is just a way for people to make more arguments against abortion for its own sake.

      • Cadavers don’t matter. It’s skin and bones and Mere flesh. The important part the spirit is gone. So it’s a shell. A empty shell.
        This is why abortion is so aweful. Because it’s the spirit in that she’ll you rob life of. God gave us each a Spirit. So as minute as a cell…there is a spirit in a cell. You kill the “shell” the spirit has no place.
        My uncle was a God believer. Just passed and donated his body to science. To help learn. He certainly didn’t need it his spirit was void of that shell.

        • An embryo is clumps of cells. Mere flesh in a much smaller form.

          If you think abortion is so awful, don’t have one. Act as an example to others. Don’t presume for a moment that your alleged moral high ground on the subject gives you any say in the decisions of others.

          You can chose to believe what you want in that respect. That is your personal beliefs and of no concern of anyone else. Nobody has to live their lives according to your beliefs.

  9. Also in reply to wyatt earp…you are an idiot! Frozen embryos are not dead they are frozen so that they can be used in future invitro attempts should a previous attempt end in a miscarriage. Also there is no natural way that your skin cells could ever produce another human life. The only way is if someone in a lab replaces the nucleus of an egg cell with the nucleus of the skin cell to produce a clone of an already existing person. So stop spouting your stupidity all over the web and do some research first.

    • LINLEY<
      “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.”
      Guess who came up with that instruction? Hint: he's the one you supposedly get your morals from.

      • to wyatt earp apparently you are so caught up in spouting your ripple that you didn’t see that linley said that “and no I am not a Christain”so your quote is to the wrong person “Hint he’s the one you supposedly get your morals from” you might want to get some help for that anger you got floating around inside you against people who believe different that you!!.

  10. It amazes me how much time Atheists spend on Religious websites. If they truly believed what they were saying then why do they worry so much about religion?

    Also, why are they offended by a God that they don’t believe exists?

    Please folks be patient with them. They long for the peace and truth we already have found and continue to seek deeper everyday.

    Be charitable with them and pray for them

    Peace out!

    • Even Keal,

      1. Atheists like me go to religious sites because we are challenging your claims about the ‘goodness’ of religion.
      2. Atheists like me go to religious sites because we want to understand the disease of religion, the spread of the infection and what medicines will kill it without hurting people.
      3. Atheists like me go to religious sites in the same way firemen go to where the fires keep happening – to try to prevent arson.

      “bring to me those enemies of mine – execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)
      “Slay them wherever you find them” – Surah (Q’uran)
      “Kill them” – Yahweh (Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Numbers, Exodus)

      For shame.

    • @Even Keal,

      “…why do they worry so much about religion?”

      JOHN FOLEY BEHEADED
      ISLAMIC STATE IN THE LEVANT (ISIS)
      9/11
      OSAMA BIN LADEN
      GREECE, NY
      HOBBY LOBBY
      DANIEL PEARL
      PEDOPHILE PRIESTS
      WAR AGAINST HOMOSEXUALS
      20 MILLION DEAD OF AIDS
      WOMEN’S RIGHTS
      CREATIONISM
      INTELLIGENT DESIGN
      KEN HAM
      SUBVERSION OF SCIENCE EDUCATION
      GENITAL MUTILATION
      HONOR KILLINGS
      ZIONIST CLAIMS OF PALESTINIAN LAND
      MUSLIM CLAIMS OF PALESTINIAN LAND
      COLLUSION OF PUTIN AND THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH

      Want more??

      • @Max
        In response to: “…why do they worry so much about religion?””

        Well we all fear Atheism for the following reasons:

        Mao Ze-Dong (China, 1958-61 and 1966-69, Tibet 1949-50) 49-78,000,00 people murdered

        Jozef Stalin (USSR 1932-39 only) 15,000,000 people murdered

        Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975-79) 1,700,000 people murdered

        Kim II Sung (North Korea 1948-94) 1.6 million people murdered

        Tito (Yugoslavia 1945-1987) 570,000 people murdered

        Suharto (Communists 1967-66) 500,000 people murdered

        Ante Pavelic (Croatia 1941-45) 359,000 people murdered

        Ho Chi Min (Vietnam 1953-56) 200,000 people murdered

        Vladimir Ilich Lenin (USSR, 1917-20) 30,000 people murdered

        Adolf Hitler (Germany 1939-1945) 12,000,000 people murdered

        BTW…Adolph Hitler after age 5, was not practicing anything that could be considered “Christian”

        Please explain this “War on Homosexuals” The LGBT folks that are in the choir at my Catholic church want to know more about that one.

        Pedophile Priests – Pedophilia is the WORST crime imaginable. My heart goes out to any victim. The truth is you are 200x more likely to be sexually abused by your own family member or a public school gym teacher. Pedophillia is a MAN problem not a Priest problem.

        Subversion of Science Education – Funny how Catholic schools & Universities tend to have some pretty state of the art Science labs happening.

        AIDS – The Catholic Church is the largest private provider of care to HIV/AIDS patients in the world, providing approximately one quarter of all HIV treatment and care. UN bodies co-operate closely with the Church on the provision of patient care, and in eliminating infections in children.

        Woman’s Right – Hey…religion invented the whole idea that woman are equal!

        The rest of the items listed can pretty much be chalked up to radical Islam. Which I agree with you, is f–ing it up for all of us.

        • @Even Keal,

          These Straw-men are NOT examples of Atheism:

          Stalin was a self-appointed intermediary (CZAR) between God and the religion of the state. He demanded FAITH in that religion including the miracles of Lysenko, or death.
          That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

          Pol Pot was a Theravada Buddhist who ‘divined supernatural heaven’ of which he appointed himself leader and demanded allegiance as head of the religion of the state of Cambodia. He was against all education and science. What Atheist ever did that?
          That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

          Hitler and his SS were sworn Catholics and Christians, hailed allegiance to the Fuhrer (father) under ‘God’, demanded faith in the divinity of the Aryan Race and demanded each Nazi wore the belt buckle which read ‘God on our side’ (“Gott Mit Uns”) or God With Us. Hitler’s first peace treaty was the Vatican Koncordat in 1933 where the church swore allegiance to Hitler and Hitler would choose the Bishops for Germany.
          Hitler’s hatred of Jews was founded on the writings of Martin Luther, he declared Christ ‘his model of the great soldier’ fighting against the evil of the Jews. (Mein Kampf) His favorite words of Jesus ended the Parable of the Minas; “Execute them in front of me.” – Jesus(Luke 19:27)
          That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

          Emperor Hirohito, was the cult of the sun god – the sacrificial Kamikazes and the holy war of ‘sacred’ Japan joining the Axis Powers against the infidel America.
          That is not Atheism – it is FAITH

          North Korea is the most religious country on earth.
          Its current leader had a supernatural birth where the birds sang in Korean. All of the subjects must worship the Dear Leader who has supernatural powers or be executed.
          That is not Atheism – it is FAITH.

          However, there is no FAITH in the United States Constitution which remains the only godless constitution in the world.

          You show me an example where the non-religious democratic ideals of Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, Voltaire and Lucretius spiraled into torture, brutality and dictatorship
          and we’ll have a level playing field.

          Don’t slander Atheism.
          YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!

          • Who is doing the slandering here Max? We are all defending the faith you came here to attack. We believe it is reasonable to believe in God. Compare your tone with the other commenters in this thread and see where the slander is originating.

            You may be well versed in your arguments, but it doesn’t mean any of it is true. (actually most of what you are claiming is total fiction, I really wish I had the time to hit up every point of yours but I’m sure I’m better off pissing in the wind right now. I am happily living a Christian life with a family I am responsible for, so all I can really do is pray for you at this time…and I have been) I will admit…you are great at coping and pasting.

            You are also picking a fight with a group of people who are taught that we have to love you too. (Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us) Kinda put you on the coward side of things…ya think?

            Your argument regarding Hobby Lobby is pure fear mongering on your part (and on the media’s part). If you actually followed the facts, Hobby Lobby successfully ask to be excluded from paying only for the abortive contraceptives include within Obamacare. The real issue is with the White House for even thinking that it was right to allow people who believe abortion is murder to have to pay for something they don’t believe in.

            Now how again is that forcing our beliefs on you? (remember Hobby Lobby asked to be excluded from that part of Obamacare, YOUR government accepted, I’m not seeing any “force” here.)

      • @Even Keal,

        GHAAAA!!

        You POOR, POOR, POOR person.

        EVERY ONE OF YOUR SUPPOSED ‘ATHEISTS’
        IS A LEADER OF FAITH-BASED MURDER!!

        Mao Ze-Dong – FAITH BASED
        STALIN – FAITH BASED
        POL POT – FAITH BASED
        KIM IL SUNG – FAITH BASED
        TITO – FAITH BASED
        SUHARTO – FAITH BASED
        PAVELIC – FAITH BASED
        LENIN – FAITH BASED
        HITLER – FAITH BASED

        YOU THINK THAT STUFF IS ATHEISM ?????

        THIS is Atheism:
        The United States Constitution!
        THE US CONSTITUTION is still the ONLY non-Faith based, GODLESS constitution in the world!

        “The US Congress shall make no law ESTABLISHING A RELIGION”

        YOU LIVE UNDER AN ATHEISTIC (GODLESS) CONSTITUTION!
        SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
        IS WHY YOU HAVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM!

        THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE
        IS EXACTLY WHAT THOSE FAITH BASED
        MURDEROUS REGIMES DID NOT HAVE!

        LESSON FOR YOU: THEOCRACIES EXPLODE INTO MASS MURDER!

        UNBELIEVABLE IGNORANCE HERE TODAY!

        • @Max

          You’ve been “straw-maning” all along. This is a forum to discuss Embryonic research and you have been on here trying to discredit religion as a smokescreen (ala straw man) to divert the facts that have been presented against embryonic research in hopes that you can find people who cannot defend their faith. You will then try to claim victory because someone cannot speak up against your bullying tactics.

          In response to the list of murderous leaders, notice that the folks you listed out are not following any Christian based faith. Your conclusions about Hitler, are false. He was an evil person. There is nothing in the Christian faith that supports his ideology. Nothing. Show me one example of Church teaching that supports what Hitler did. He knew how to manipulate. That doesn’t make him a Christian, that’s what we define as pure evil. His connections to Christianity are modern day myths and legends and are truly examples of revisionist history. If you look at what news paper articles from the 30s and 40s you will find many Faith based leaders (I know of many Christians, and Jews) who were out right opposed to Hitlers ideology, and their actions during those times speak volumes to how they fought against him.

          As far as the American men you listed, to say their ideals did not spiral into tourture, brutality and dictatorship is the result of Atheism is quite a stretch. You perspective is pure childish modern skepticism to attribute all that to their disbelief in God. They clearly had a belief in God and “FAITH” in the Judeo-Christian system that they based their laws upon.

          Ben Franklin:
          I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by his Providence. That he ought to be worshipped. That the most acceptable Service we can render to him, is doing Good to his other Children.

          Thomas Jefferson:
          The rights to religious freedom are of the natural rights of mankind, and if any act shall be passed to repeal an act granting those rights or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right.”

          As far as your definition of “faith” goes Max, seems you are actually rigidly following a faith.

          What makes you so sure Atheism is true?

          • @Even Keal,

            “Show me one example of Church teaching that supports
            what Hitler did.”

            Are you in high school?

            “The Jews Killed Jesus”
            Pope Pius was Hitler’s Pope. Hitler’s first peace treaty was the Vatican Koncordat of 1933.
            Hitler made it clear what he felt about the Jews to Pope Pius.
            “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
            “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933
            “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

            The Vatican signed the Peace Treaty with Hitler knowing that Hitler would take serious action against Jews.

            The Vatican endorsed the ringing of church bells
            on Hitler’s birthday every April – starting in 1933 all the way to 1945. Hitler wanted to be thought of as a god on earth and the church supported this.
            Some of these laws from the Hitler Koncordat are still in effect in Europe today.

            Hitler and his Catholic SS were never ex-communicated by the church – even to this day.

            “Bring to me those enemies of mine who would not have me as their King and Execute them in front of me.” – JESUS (Luke 19:27)

            I’m sorry you have had no education.

          • @Even Keal,

            I LOVE IT when Christians bring up Thomas Jefferson
            as their defender of their faith. Politicians can usually be counted on to pander to their public somewhat and as such it is extraordinary
            how much of Christianity Thomas Jefferson rejected even though he gave it a few flowery quotes.

            If you have read Thomas Jefferson Bible (it is a mere pamphlet)
            you will discover that our great president
            REJECTED ALL THAT CHRISTIANS HOLD DEAR:

            Baptism
            Tithing
            The 10 Commandments
            The Resurrection
            Communion
            Vicarious Redemption
            Transubstantiation
            The Trinity
            The Virgin Mother
            ANY Miracles
            ANY Healings
            The Virgin Birth
            The Christmas Myth
            The Wise Men
            The Sacraments
            ALL OF THE God CLAIMS!

            In other words he liked the story of the Good Samaritan
            and stories which re-enforced JESUS’ endless redundancies around THE GOLDEN RULE, which pre-dated Jesus by several centuries.

            He reduced the Bible to nothing more than a pamphlet.

            Meanwhile Thomas Jefferson was clearly disgusted by those who preached and believed in the DIVINITY of Jesus:

            “On the dogmas of religon, as distinguished from moral principles, all mankind, from the beginning of the world to this day, have been quarreling, fighting, burning and torturing one another, for abstractions unintelligible to themselves and to all others, and absolutely beyond the comprehension of the human mind.”
            – Thomas Jefferson, to Carey, 1816

            “In every country and in every age, the preacher has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

            -Thomas Jefferson

            “Question with boldness the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.”

            -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

            And YOU have shown only
            obedience and fear –
            the very things
            which rightly disgusted the great THOMAS JEFFERSON !!

          • @Even Keal,

            “your definition of “faith” goes Max, seems you are actually rigidly following a faith.”

            I have no faith in any gods or claims which are unsupported by evidence. I see no evidence of any god at all.
            I am confronting your constant, continuing claims with “SHOW ME” and you have shown me nothing.

            Atheist = “I do not believe in any gods”
            That is not faith. and it is NOT a claim that gods are impossible.

            “What makes you so sure Atheism is true?”
            What don’t you understand?
            Atheism isn’t a thing! Atheism is the LACK of a thing!
            The burden is on you – not me.
            I see no god in any thing at all – and you keep claiming that you KNOW that a god exists and that God is necessary for humanity to function!
            Well? Where is your evidence? You continue to reject your own evidence since you continue to NOT show it to me!

  11. I too have heard of the ice bucket challenge and I have heard that ALS research is done with embro stem cells. what I am not getting is the cells collected from aborted fetus? I ask this cause I know that a mom after given birth can have her plecenta placed in a bank for the stem cells with in to be used for research. I want to know is this stem cells being used? I know after birth, this part is thrown in the trash cause it has done its job and no longer needed. This are stem cells that is being thrown away that doesn’t require an unborn baby to be put to death. any thoughts on this. I am pro life but I do know that if stem cells can be produced from me walking into a center and having a skin sample given and the stem cells is regenerated or the stem cells from placenta or the umbilical cord can be used, I am all for it but not in the case of finding a cure at the death of a baby.

  12. Life demands Extraordinary circumstances to exist and flourish.

    If you come from a naturalist perspective then that requires incalculable, infinitesimal odds. i.e. Faith in impossible odds for life.

    Example: The odds of a single protein forming:
    http://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/article/download/BIO-C.2010.1/56

    If you believe in God, that requires faith in a god that is infinitely more power, more complex, and intelligent than the universe and it’s contents, which the Bible describes.

    I believe it’s a rational binary choice. I believe those who give each choice a thorough and exhaustive in depth study will come to the right conclusion.

    But unfortunately, on this discussion board, only very shallow arguments on both sides have been put forth.

  13. Keal: “How do you explain all the amazing order in this universe? It can’t be random.”

    MAX: ¶Who says it can’t be random? How do you know!?
    Everything else in nature is completely random. Why not the Cosmos?
    ————————————-

    Max, this made me laugh. Everything else in nature is completely random? Really? Your DNA is in random? lmao!!

    • @rimi,

      “Your DNA is random”

      DNA is a molecule. My DNA is different from your DNA because of RANDOM mutation and evolutionary selection.

      And furthermore, if you claim ‘God did it’ I’ll need to see some evidence that ONE true God made the DNA and not TWO true Gods or THREE true Gods.

      DNA is completely explainable through evolution. Random mutation and natural selection are science basics anyone can understand.

  14. Embryonic stems cells are from four to five day old blastocysts, therefore they come from virto fertilization clinics. Fetal stem cells (which have proved to be dangerous to use) generally come from abortion clinics and most likely hospitals from natural miscarriages.

    This is a MOOT issue. Embryonic stem cell research has absolutely nothing to do with abortion and therefore anti-abortion advocates should shut up, learn what embryonic stem cells are and then start picketing fertility clinics.

  15. Mr Max Atheist…

    We have a word for what you are portraying with Hitler…it’s called Heresy.

    ———————————————————-

    “A heretic will use the bible to justify his heresy”

    ———————————————————-

    Some bible verses I’m sure you probably came across on the topic…

    Matthew 7:15:
    Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

    Matt 24:11
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many .

    Matt 24:24:
    For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

    BTW THE BIBLE ALSO HAS ALOT OF REALLY GOOD STUFF IN IT SUCH AS…

    Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

    WE STILL LOVE YOU MAX! You probably just need a big hug!!!

    :)

    Peace!

  16. Wow, I wish I could have been here when this thing happened. The only thing I would like to say is: Watch the movie “God’s Not Dead”. I was and am a Catholic and this inspired me even more. It is mainly based on a true story.* So amazing. If any of you check this anymore, please please please watch it. Especially you, @Atheist Max. You are in my prayers, no matter what you say. I don’t care if you don’t believe in God, or if famous important people believe in God, the most important thing is that He loves and believes you. Don’t forget that. If anyone is listening or still checks this page, please reply. I would like to talk.
    —————————————————————————————————–
    * It’s not based on one story, but many many many stories people have told about their situation like this. The director just generalized it. So amazing!!!

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